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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
The battle may as well start here.
Kuros, Machoman, Eb, where do YOU get the idea that you're so much better than FromtheUK? |
Your Helm of Mambrino sure is sparkly, soldier.
Meh. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
The Black people fought back and they made gains.
The women fought back and they made gains.
It is time for introverts to do the same.
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A comparison between the social plight of introverts and the social plight of two groups who were historically treated as property and denied political rights seems to lack a certain sense of scale. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think introverts have it so easy-- if you're socially awkward, you're usually either ignored or feared. Most socially awkward people don't get together, because well, it would require socializing... and because those kinds of people don't tend to go out and run into other awkward people.
On the other hand, FTUK has a lot of problems that he refuses to deal with and blames on those around him, so it's hard to have sympathy for him. Introversion is the least of them. You can be introverted while remaining level-headed and not embarrassing yourself with threads like this. |
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machoman
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
The battle may as well start here.
Kuros, Machoman, Eb, where do YOU get the idea that you're so much better than FromtheUK? |
maybe you have something personal against me because i called you creepy for wanting to read books to children at the library a while ago (which was said slightly in jest).... but not once did i attack introverts or FUTK for being an introvert and not once did i defend extroverts. i think i'm a little bit of both. there are months where i refuse to hang out with anyone, and there are times where i want to go bar hopping and socialize. i go through periods, maybe extreme periods.
but with anything in life, i think finding that balance is healthiest.
and my point with FUTK is that in another thread, he blames others around him for being hostile while claiming he's always polite and well spoken- something that people can't stand. which to me, is so far from the truth. i know SO MANY well spoken, polite people who have no social problems- extrovert OR introvert. so the problem isn't with the people FUTK works with, it's something within him that he can't see because of his ego. |
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fromtheuk
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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The guy that advises me to blame myself sounds a little too apologetic for my liking.
I have no ego but a pretty accurate idea of my own self-worth. Ego? Non-existent! I thank God for any good quality that I have.
Let me give you an example, I walk into a room totally minding my own business, I speak to somebody for the first time ever and they realize I can string a sentence together with an above-average English accent.
They see it sounds way better than themselves and the conversation ends.
The next time I walk into the same room that same person gives me extremely filthy looks and is clearly bad mouthing my good self with his pals. What did I do to deserve that when I was perfectly civil with that person?
Nothing but pure jealousy. My definition of not kissing up is different. I don't greet people in positions of authority unless I have a reason to speak to them. I do not rush to speak to them purely because of their position.
Unfortunately, my boot licking colleagues feel obliged to do this.
I also look pretty good. I exercise regularly and I'm in shape. People resent me because based on merit, I am clearly better than them. Based on merit. Yet, those who are hostile toward me look and sound like monsters out of a sci-fi movie.
So, why would I even want to associate myself with ill-mannered people that are beneath me anyway?!! It's a no-brainer.
I am also independent which irritates people. They are like weak-minded sheep, they must do everything together, otherwise they feel threatened.
I am partly ignored because I ignore most people. I am also partly feared, because nobody has the guts to say anything to my face and when I am in close proximity they shut up like the pathetic cowards they are.
Let me give you an analogy. You see Elvis Presley and next to him is a deformed, cretin. Elvis is very polite to the cretin, but the cretin thinks it is fine to then blatantly ridicule Elvis with his chums.
I suppose Elvis should blame himself for this situation because he must have done something to deserve it and the full story hasn't been told. What a pathetic conclusion to reach!
No, readers, I am not claiming to be Elvis Presley. But when someone is self-evidently above average, consitently polite, not 2 faced and has some integrity, it is everybody elses fault.
I refuse to lower my standards to fit in with those who think bad manners are fine. 
Lastly, on the subject of introversion/extroversion, I dislike most humans, in particular, extroverts. They are a walking self-delusion. They think they are 'all that,' but they are really pretty ordinary.
Why do I dislike humans? I dislike most of them because they are nasty. Those that are nice, I like. I love those who are pretty (shallow, I know).
I avoid my colleagues and I find happiness in my own company at work.
Introversion rules! |
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machoman
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| fromtheuk wrote: |
Let me give you an example, I walk into a room totally minding my own business, I speak to somebody for the first time ever and they realize I can string a sentence together with an above average English accent.
They see it sounds way better than themselves and the conversation ends.
The next time I walk into the same room that same person gives me extremely filthy looks and is clearly bad mouthing my good self. What did I do to deserve that when I was perfectly civil with that person?
Nothing but pure jealousy. |
this sounds a bit delusional. a little unrealistic.
| Quote: |
My definition of not kissing up is different. I don't greet people in positions of authority unless I have a reason to speak to them. I do not rush to speak to them purely because of their position.
Unfortunately, my boot licking colleagues feel obliged to do this. |
i don't rush to speak to anyone because of their position. i greet everyone in the teachers office, i greet other teachers if i see them in the hallway, and i greet the vice principal and principal. it's just common courtesy. i'm not brown nosing to the science teacher who never talks to me, what reason do i have to brown nose her? i just greet her with a slight head bow and smile.
when you see your director or principal, do you just walk by them without acknowledging them? that's a bit rude. but if this is yourself and this is your idea of being true to yourself, then you're fighting a lost cause. it's socially normal and expected to greet your colleagues. and your refusal to do so can be perceived as being rude. if i was your co worker and you you walked by me without making eye contact or acknowledging my existence, i'd think that was a bit douchey. you would think that's you sticking your ground and not brown nosing. and if i stopped having conversations with you after that, you would think i'm jealous.
do you see where i'm going?
so the only time you acknowledge your boss is when you need to speak to them (in other words when you need something from them)? the game is so simple and takes no effort. anyways, i was trying to give you a different insight since you seem unsatisfied with how people perceive you.
but here's one thing i should say, if you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got. so if you want less hostility at the work environment, change your attitude. smile at your co workers and greet them. |
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fromtheuk
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate your viewpoint and I understand it fully. But I have never trusted very many work colleagues in any job that I've had. I'd rather conserve energy and avoid them all like the plague.
Some work colleagues are fake, so I won't smile at people I cannot stand. I don't trust them, I don't like them, and I don't want to see them, that's why I try not to see them, so I can avoid greeting them. Sorry for the many 'thems'.
If I am ever literally face to face with anybody I consider to be half-decent, then I'll acknowledge them. Or, if I calculate not greeting my colleagues in a situation will put me in a bad light, I'll greet them as briefly as possible.
I basically don't give a you-know-what nowadays. It's all about keeping my job. |
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wiganer
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Basically Machoman, all FTUK is saying is that basically he is happy with his life when it doesn't involve kissing arse and making accquaintances, and that most people are quite snide and will talk behind your back and when you get over this moment of truth and you stop trying to befriend, kiss up or arselick these people then life gets better.
When I was your age MM - I was like you, I went out of my way to be 'nice' and polite to everyone and I didn't get it back half of the time and I used to wonder why - so I would be even nicer and more accomodating and that didn't work either, so I just stopped doing it. The older you get, the less you care about what people think of you and the less stress you have in your life which in turn makes you happier.
FTUK states that he is polite in his interactions with the average punter in his life - that is all he needs to be.
At this moment in time, you have a second year middle school student feeling you up in front of his classmates. This little tosser is taking the piss out of you because you are obviously too soft with the students and obviously not learned the lesson that you can't be a friend to all. When I was a GEPIK teacher I was something akin to a parade ground sergeant major - when I was your age I would have probably not have been. What FTUK (as usual - the best poster on here by a million miles) is doing is sharing yet another universal truth about human nature. If you don't agree with him now, it's OK, you will in a few years from now when you grow up a bit.  |
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machoman
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| wiganer wrote: |
| Basically Machoman, all FTUK is saying is that basically he is happy with his life when it doesn't involve kissing arse and making accquaintances, and that most people are quite snide and will talk behind your back and when you get over this moment of truth and you stop trying to befriend, kiss up or arselick these people then life gets better. |
this is the thing.... he doesn't sound happy. he sounds bitter and confused as to why people are hostile to him when all he is, is nice and polite to them. but then later, he admits that he avoids co workers like the plague, that he doesn't acknowledge them, that he'll only speak to his superiors when he needs something.
| Quote: |
| When I was your age MM - I was like you, I went out of my way to be 'nice' and polite to everyone and I didn't get it back half of the time and I used to wonder why - so I would be even nicer and more accomodating and that didn't work either, so I just stopped doing it. The older you get, the less you care about what people think of you and the less stress you have in your life which in turn makes you happier. |
FTUK would think i'm playing the game, something he refuses to do. you think it's going out of my way. but it's not. a simple smile and a head bow doesn't burn any calories. i've worked a lot of jobs where there were plenty of bureaucratic managers, and playing it smart can go a long way. for instance, i'm nice and courteous to my vice principal. i don't go out of my way, i don't buy any gifts for him, just smiles, bows and good mornings. he seems to like me. he's pretty strict with school policy, but he when i wanted certain vacation, he went out of his way to make it work for me. if i was FTUK, and i ignored him and didn't acknowledge his presence even though they were in the same room, i wouldn't expect the VP to do me any favors. rightfully so.
| Quote: |
| At this moment in time, you have a second year middle school student feeling you up in front of his classmates. This little tosser is taking the piss out of you because you are obviously too soft with the students and obviously not learned the lesson that you can't be a friend to all. When I was a GEPIK teacher I was something akin to a parade ground sergeant major - when I was your age I would have probably not have been. What FTUK (as usual - the best poster on here by a million miles) is doing is sharing yet another universal truth about human nature. If you don't agree with him now, it's OK, you will in a few years from now when you grow up a bit. |
i'm sure our teaching philosophies are different. i'm stern when i have to be, but in my classroom, it's imperative that the students feel relaxed and uninhibited around me. so many students can be shy or nervous speaking in english to a native teacher. i see this as their chance to practice what they already know, whether they're nearly fluent or if they're low level. this particular touchy feely kid is pretty good at english and has come up to me after class to talk, so his heart is in the right place and i don't want to scare or intimidate him from talking to me in the future.
my classes are small, 20 students at the max, so discipline and behavior isn't a problem at this school. but i'm stern when i have to be.
and as for the age thing, how old are you? i know age can be an important factor in all of this, life experiences definitely mold your perception. but i really don't want to become like FTUK when i'm 37. i've been through quite a lot already and have good enough reasons to think people suck and become misanthropic as wel~ living with drug addicts who bail out on rent, having to sue roommates for not paying, dealing with lying ex girlfriends who eff your best friend's little brother just to piss you off...
anyway, ultimately, at this point in the discussion, i'm not sure what FTUK is really trying to express anymore.... is he angry about his road to introversion, is he accusing others of pushing him into that direction? is he happy that he's an introvert now? is he happy that he's a misanthrope or does he wish that he wasn't one? does he want to change what's going on his life or is he happy with what's going on? he's listing problems but with no solutions, so is this just a big rant?
why am i even responding then? why does god exist? am i asking too many questions? who am i? is richard simmons gay or not? huh? i give up. i'm going to eat a tangerine alone in my apartment now. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Machoman, there's really not much sense in arguing with ftuk... here are some of the reasons:
| fromtheuk wrote: |
| I can string a sentence together with an above-average English accent. |
| fromtheuk wrote: |
| They see it sounds way better than themselves and the conversation ends. |
| fromtheuk wrote: |
| People resent me because based on merit, I am clearly better than them. |
| fromtheuk wrote: |
| those who are hostile toward me look and sound like monsters out of a sci-fi movie. |
| fromtheuk wrote: |
| They are like weak-minded sheep |
| fromtheuk wrote: |
| I love those who are pretty (shallow, I know). |
Do you seriously think that this is someone who will ever understand why people don't like him??? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| A comparison between the social plight of introverts and the social plight of two groups who were historically treated as property and denied political rights seems to lack a certain sense of scale. |
I'm not saying the problems are on the same scale,
I'm saying they're on the same principle.
Would you agree to that?
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| I don't think introverts have it so easy-- if you're socially awkward, you're usually either ignored or feared. Most socially awkward people don't get together, because well, it would require socializing... and because those kinds of people don't tend to go out and run into other awkward people. |
My US history prof said that every mistreated minority has made some progress except for the farmers because every mistreated minority has banded together except for the farmers.
The farmers haven't banded together because they have been too individualistic.
My US history teacher might agree with you.
| Quote: |
| On the other hand, FTUK has a lot of problems that he refuses to deal with and blames on those around him, so it's hard to have sympathy for him. Introversion is the least of them. You can be introverted while remaining level-headed and not embarrassing yourself with threads like this. |
| Quote: |
| FTUK has a lot of problems that he refuses to deal with and blames on those around him. |
I didn't realize that at the time that I wrote the first post.
But now that I see his more recent posts, I see what you mean.
His posts are enough to put my Miriam Ferguson Society stories to shame!
| machoman wrote: |
| maybe you have something personal against me because i called you creepy for wanting to read books to children at the library a while ago (which was said slightly in jest).... but not once did i attack introverts or FUTK for being an introvert and not once did i defend extroverts. |
Was that you? I forgot WHO it was.
No, it was because your post on the first page seemed hostile.
Anyway, they are building a public library in my neighborhood, and I am looking forward to reading books in the kiddy room.
If I don't mind, and if the children don't mind, and if the parents don't mind, why should you?
| fromtheuk wrote: |
Let me give you an example, I walk into a room totally minding my own business, I speak to somebody for the first time ever and they realize I can string a sentence together with an above-average English accent.
They see it sounds way better than themselves and the conversation ends. |
I'm not sure I understand.
Are you talking about Koreans or wegukin's?
If you're talking about wegukin's, how do you judge an English accent?
Is the accent of one social class better than that of another social class?
Is the accent from one part of Great Britain better than that from another part of Great Gritain?
Or what?
| Quote: |
I do not rush to speak to them purely because of their position.
Unfortunately, my boot licking colleagues feel obliged to do this. |
I think we have a culture gap here.
My current boss tells me that employees are expected to say hello first when they see their employers.
I feel uncomfortable about this, because I had always felt as if it was presumptuous for an underling to speak first.
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| People resent me because based on merit, I am clearly better than them. Based on merit. |
How do you figure that?
I can't begin to tell you who is smarter than who because there are too many variables to consider.
I know more about classical music than most people, but I don't claim to be superior to most people except in that one variable.
Machoman might be a champion ice hockey player. How can I compare his ice hockey with my classical music?
ESL Milk might be a skillful motorcycle mechanic. How can I compare his motorcycle mechanics with Machoman's ice hockey?
Anyway, they both seem to be more extroverted than I am, so they clearly know more than I do about going out and making friends.
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| So, why would I even want to associate myself with ill-mannered people that are beneath me anyway?!! |
Oh, I don't know.
Where would Bill Gates be if nobody mopped the floors in his office building?
Where would Liz Taylor be if there weren't any extras and bit parts in her movies?
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| nobody has the guts to say anything to my face and when I am in close proximity they shut up like the pathetic cowards they are. |
Are you talking about Koreans?
That's another cultural difference.
When the parents are mad at me, they don't tell me, they tell the director.
When the students are mad at me, they don't tell me, they tell the director.
Then when HE tells ME, I yell, "Well, those bastards! If they got something against ME, why can't they tell ME!"
He always says, "That's part of our culture. Get used to it."
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| But when someone is self-evidently above average, consitently polite, not 2 faced and has some integrity, it is everybody elses fault. |
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| Why do I dislike humans? I dislike most of them because they are nasty. |
Have you read I'm OK, You're OK?
If you have, I'm curious: what do you think of it?
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| Introversion rules! |
That's hard to say.
There have been some outstanding introverts and some outstanding extroverts.
Thomas Edison was at a party where he was trying to get out the door without being seen.
Someone came up to him and said, "Tell me, Mr. Edison, what have you been working on?"
He said, "Right now, I have been working on an exit."
On the other hand, an editor for a publisher said that he could tell from the first page of a manuscript whether or not the author likes people.
If the author doesn't seem to like people, he doesn't bother to read any further.
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| Yet, those who are hostile toward me look and sound like monsters out of a sci-fi movie. |
Machoman and I have disagreed.
Machoman, if I ever call you a science fiction monster, I want you to call my hand.
| Quote: |
| I am also independent which irritates people. They are like weak-minded sheep, they must do everything together, otherwise they feel threatened. |
| Quote: |
| Extroverts. . . are a walking self-delusion. |
One position is as defensible as the other in terms of Evolutionary psychology.
You know why a dog comes wagging his tail when the owner comes home but a cat doesn't?
Because wolves in their natural state hunt in groups and cats in their natural state hunt individually.
It seems that our prehistoric ancestors did some of both, which is why we have introverts and extroverts today.
| wiganer wrote: |
| At this moment in time, you have a second year middle school student feeling you up in front of his classmates. This little tosser is taking the piss out of you because you are obviously too soft with the students and obviously not learned the lesson that you can't be a friend to all. |
I thought that was an elementary student.
He said "first grade boy" but he didn't say first grade elementary or first grade middle school.
Which is it, Machoman?
Anyway, an introvert could have difficulty controlling a class, too.
I tend to stammer when I reprimand a misbehaving student.
The students notice it, and they tease me because of it.
I am trying to break the habit. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| A comparison between the social plight of introverts and the social plight of two groups who were historically treated as property and denied political rights seems to lack a certain sense of scale. |
I'm not saying the problems are on the same scale,
I'm saying they're on the same principle.
Would you agree to that? |
Not really. With blacks and women, it was a problem of humans reducing other humans to mere objects to be owned and utilized. With extroverts and introverts, well, I'm not even exactly sure what the perceived problem is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem to be objectification whatever it is.
I'm honestly not really sure what this proposed crusade is even supposed to be about. I am a fairly introverted person, and if anything I have found that extroverted individuals are more likely to show me kindness and respect, not less likely. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:51 am Post subject: |
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You haven't had extroverts treat you like a clinical case?
You haven't had extroverts tell you that extroversion is better than introversion?
You haven't had extroverts try to convert you to extroversion?
I have. |
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fromtheuk
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:05 am Post subject: |
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It's interesting to note nobody has addressed my Elvis analogy i.e. fromtheuk BASED ON MERIT is better than another person, the better person is always kind/nice but gets nothing but hostility/resentment in return.
Who is to blame? In such a scenario, everybody except fromtheuk.
It's nice to see people attempt to belittle my good self or use my quotes to give the impression I am problematic. Yet, these very same posters cannot give any coherent answer to explain away the shabbiness of some people in social situations.
I hold myself in high esteem BASED ON MERIT.
machoman - It's horses for courses.
I am a human with a mixture of emotions. I am only very happy on my own or in cyberspace. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| fromtheuk wrote: |
It's interesting to note nobody has addressed my Elvis analogy i.e. fromtheuk BASED ON MERIT is better than another person, the better person is always kind/nice but gets nothing but hostility/resentment in return.
Who is to blame? In such a scenario, everybody except fromtheuk.
It's nice to see people attempt to belittle my good self or use my quotes to give the impression I am problematic. Yet, these very same posters cannot give any coherent answer to explain away the shabbiness of some people in social situations.
I hold myself in high esteem BASED ON MERIT.
machoman - It's horses for courses.
I am a human with a mixture of emotions. I am only very happy on my own or in cyberspace. |
Yes, people are bad. I'm under the impression that this has been a complaint since time unknown.
Chin up, old fellow. It gets me down alot at times too. |
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