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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:22 am Post subject: |
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So can we take racism against southeast asians seriously?
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_625391.html
My problem with the whole "apologist" stance of Korean racism is that any racism is wrong, no matter who it is against or who it comes from. It's wonderful that racism and xenophobia, on a whole, has been on a steady decline in Korea, but that doesn't excuse any lingering racism whenever it does manifest.
And sorry to single out Asian-Americans/Canadians in this thread, but I know you're damn well aware of racism experienced by minorities in the US, yet I wouldn't think you'd be so quick to give it a pass based on "it used to be worse" or "X group has it worse" or "we should stop being so PC", as (right-leaning) whites in America often try to do.
I think doing so is a disservice to all the wonderful racially-progressive, open-minded, and kind-hearted Koreans who want to continue to see their country change for the better.
As far as the Mohammed cartoon comparison goes, I feel that falls a little flat. Criticizing ideals and practices is a far shot from attempting to dehumanize a person based on the body they were born into. If the artist wished to focus on the America-centric nature of the awards over the past few years, there are much more topical ways to do so. And this is hardly the first cartoon in the Korean press which has depicted foreigners by their physical stereotypes. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Don't a large number of Koreans, especially women, envy Western noses? People don't usually want to be like something they make fun of.
I would find it hard to believe that the cartoon could actually be racist. It's just a cartoon character identifier without having to put a caption saying "those guys are Americans". I am sure we can find many, many more American cartoon columnists drawing Asians with small eyes. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I would find it hard to believe that the cartoon could actually be racist. It's just a cartoon character identifier without having to put a caption saying "those guys are Americans". I am sure we can find many, many more American cartoon columnists drawing Asians with small eyes. |
Not to mention that the asians in this very cartoon are not exactly pictured better... 
Good lord, when you look hard enough for something to be outraged about, you will inevitably find it, even if its not really there. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
In Korea a person who is deemed to be arrogant or too proud of themselves is described as having a "high nose".
I think the gist of the cartoon is that it was pretty arrogant of the powers that be to make this choice for Car of the Year. I don't see the racism.
Context is an important thing. |
So, what's the context in this case?: http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/09/11/2009091100859.html
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Don't know. Don't care. We're not discussing that one. |
Another cartoon depicting foreigners with large noses from the same paper adds context, which, I've been told, is an important thing. |
Another racist picture from the same newspaper doesn't prove that the picture we are discussing in this thread is racist. If you want to say that the newspaper has racist tendencies and use pictures to prove that point, that's one thing. To say that one racist picture proves that another is racist doesn't work.
Your argument is essentially this:
Premise: Here is a racist picture they printed in the past.
Conclusion: This new picture must be racist also.
Logically, it doesn't work.
BTW, I DO believe Korea can be an incredibly racist country. I just don't think the picture here is racist. |
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lithium
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jake_Kim wrote: |
Chosun Ilbo = FOX News.
What do you expect? |
Must you let everyone know that you are a flaming liberal?  |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| lithium wrote: |
| Jake_Kim wrote: |
Chosun Ilbo = FOX News.
What do you expect? |
Must you let everyone know that you are a flaming liberal? |
Says the man with the Ronald Raegan avatar? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| lithium wrote: |
| Jake_Kim wrote: |
Chosun Ilbo = FOX News.
What do you expect? |
Must you let everyone know that you are a flaming liberal? |
Do you have to be a flaming liberal to hate on Fox News? |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
Don't a large number of Koreans, especially women, envy Western noses? People don't usually want to be like something they make fun of.
I would find it hard to believe that the cartoon could actually be racist. It's just a cartoon character identifier without having to put a caption saying "those guys are Americans". I am sure we can find many, many more American cartoon columnists drawing Asians with small eyes. |
Pretty ignorant to say that a cartoon can't be racist. Your own comment about American cartoons illuminates why.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Good lord, when you look hard enough for something to be outraged about, you will inevitably find it, even if its not really there. |
First, my position is not that of unspeakable outrage. Calling something racist doesn't mean you're calling it extremely racist, much less the most awful thing in existence (or any other hyperbolic way of expressing it in attempt to diminish the opposing argument as being over-reacting). But racist is racist- from there you can determine the degree of harm (this case, in isolation, I feel is not too harmful or worrisome), but you can't say a spade isn't a spade.
And related to what Eagle said about American cartoons, we can find recent examples of Japanese comics (Anti-Korean Wave business) which offended a lot of Koreans with negative-stereotype illustrations of Korean characters (as well as offending in many other ways). Are Koreans just trying hard to be outraged? |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
Don't a large number of Koreans, especially women, envy Western noses? People don't usually want to be like something they make fun of.
I would find it hard to believe that the cartoon could actually be racist. It's just a cartoon character identifier without having to put a caption saying "those guys are Americans". I am sure we can find many, many more American cartoon columnists drawing Asians with small eyes. |
Pretty ignorant to say that a cartoon can't be racist. Your own comment about American cartoons illuminates why. |
The cartoon, not a cartoon. Pretty ignorant to make a comment without first reading properly or thinking. |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grumpy Senator wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
In Korea a person who is deemed to be arrogant or too proud of themselves is described as having a "high nose".
I think the gist of the cartoon is that it was pretty arrogant of the powers that be to make this choice for Car of the Year. I don't see the racism.
Context is an important thing. |
FINALLY!!! Someone tries to understand the cartoon before screaming racism and "Koreans this and Koreans that!!" Reminds me of the beef protests. All reaction and no thinking.
Wow, 5 pages of the most paranoid, ill-informed garbage I have seen in awhile. Should I change my avatar because his nose is big?? Hahahahahahaha!!! |
Ah, context.
Well said.
/ thread |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
Your argument is essentially this:
Premise: Here is a racist picture they printed in the past.
Conclusion: This new picture must be racist also.
Logically, it doesn't work.
BTW, I DO believe Korea can be an incredibly racist country. I just don't think the picture here is racist. |
No, my point was essentially that since this paper has had other cartoons that also portrayed foreigners with huge noses, the chances that this cartoon can be explained away with references to pinocchio or "high noses = arrogance" are a bit slimmer than if this were the only cartoon to portray foreigners in said manner.
BTW, I am not offended by the cartoon as I don't think it really hurts anyone (it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings). I actually started a thread about this cartoon and others in the "off topic" forum before this thread began. http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=198947 Unlike this thread, it has had hardly any traffic. My guess is because I called the cartoons "odd" instead of "racist" because I don't like using that term to describe things or people that are not really harming anyone.
Last edited by flakfizer on Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, when you also appeared to bring up American cartoons depicting Asians stereotypically as no big deal, it did look like you were generalizing.
And Koreans don't want big noses like the ones depicted in cartoons of Americans/white foreigners; they want a bridge that isn't flat. I think, in Korea especially, it's a huge mistake to assume that all ideas of and pursuits for beauty are based on wanting to look white. Also, Korean slang/slurs for white people involves "big nose" or just "nose."
But yeah, I guess if there was a cartoon depicting a black person with ridiculously large lips, there's nothing that would make that cartoon racist. In fact, many white girls get collagen injections! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
As far as the Mohammed cartoon comparison goes, I feel that falls a little flat. Criticizing ideals and practices is a far shot from attempting to dehumanize a person based on the body they were born into. If the artist wished to focus on the America-centric nature of the awards over the past few years, there are much more topical ways to do so. And this is hardly the first cartoon in the Korean press which has depicted foreigners by their physical stereotypes. |
First off, I'm coming around to thinking that the cartoon should be yanked. Even if it had benign intent, in today's age it should be yanked.
That being said, I think it is fair to compare it to Mohammed cartoons. If you think there isn't any racial component to those you are being willfully naive. Whenever I see them I get a vague racial vibe. And even if it isn't racist, it's still wrong. You don't mock people's religion. That's just good manners. Believe it or not, many people regard having their religion mocked as being far worse than having their race mocked. People of all religious backgrounds. You could joke about Jewish stereotypes and some Jews would be offended, others would roll with it. Start mocking the Jewish religion (as an outsider) and all those laughs would disappear rapidly.
Again, we are complaining about physical depictions of Caucasians, but where is the uproar about the physical depiction of the Asian characters?
One poster here has already suggested that she doesn't see anything wrong with the Asian characters and that they aren't racist and she would have no idea that they were Asian if it wasn't for black hair and them being in an Asian newspaper. They clearly were stereotyped as being smaller, narrow-eyed, and having a uniform "bland" appearance.
But hey, it's all about the schnozz.
To sum up here is the OP's complaint.
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| How would you feel if an American newspaper wrote an article insulting a Korean car and drew a racist cartoon of Korean people? Americans do not have noses like that - it is a racist depiction, reducing us to features that Koreans perceive as 'different' - and we are not all white with blonde hair, either, which is something Korean media seems to ignore. |
Her response to my point about the Asian character's appearance-
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| I think they represent Asians because they have black hair and are in a Korean newspaper referring to Korean people. Other than that, I don't see what's stereotypically 'Asian' about them. Please direct me to the distinct Asian features akin to the noses on the blonde men or giant lips on the black cartoons posted earlier. |
I think we can agree that all of the Asian characters have small eyes (look closely, they eyes are drawn in a different style) and are shown with small noses )I've seen my fair share of Koreans with a big schnozz. Lastly, they are depicted as smaller in stature and of that uniform boring appearance. I've met giant Koreans and certainly ones that dress a lot more colorfully than that.
So in the end, the depictions are a "push". Everyone got treated equally poorly. Now I know racism is the worst evil in entire land (worse than theft, rape, assault, lying, stealing, cheating, smoking crack, pollution, etc. etc.) but isn't the standard for cartoons and stuff that they are supposed to mock equally? That the very nature of cartoons is one of poking fun?
Anyways, take em' down. I thought the cartoon's of Mohammed were in terrible taste, so by my own standard. This does reveal our own prejudices.....I think most of us didn't see what the big deal was about the whole Danish cartoon thing was. Well, now we know.
At the same time there needs to be ways to have good race jokes (I think for example, Chappelle and Mencia (guy sucks, but he was good in tone) did it right when it comes to Asians and whites) and then there are bad ones/outright bigotry, i.e. Michael Richards or Rosie O'Donnell.
People gotta be able to take a joke, but we need good definitions of the boundaries. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Again, we are complaining about physical depictions of Caucasians, but where is the uproar about the physical depiction of the Asian characters? |
The uproar about the depiction of Asians is on more Asian-centric parts of the internet. I don't think you should necessarily/categorically fault someone for being more noticeable of racism directed towards themselves than others because I think it's impossible to be equally aware of others as you are of yourself.
But if you want to read about some outrage over Korean depictions (including illustrated representation of racial/ethnic features...):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_Kenkanryu
picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kenkanryu_nyt_2.jpg
I'm sure there are Korean sources you could find (and read) which would indicate uproar.
And I still don't see much validity in your Danish cartoon comparison. Most people are offended if their ideals are criticized or disrespected, but again, we're talking apples and oranges. |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
In Korea a person who is deemed to be arrogant or too proud of themselves is described as having a "high nose".
I think the gist of the cartoon is that it was pretty arrogant of the powers that be to make this choice for Car of the Year. I don't see the racism.
Context is an important thing. |
So, what's the context in this case?: http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/09/11/2009091100859.html
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The context is that both students are arrogant. The one sitting in front is slightly less arrogant. You can tell because his nose is a little smaller and he doesn't have an arrogant smirk on his face. The student sitting in front is less arrogant because he has been studying Korean longer. Duh. |
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