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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject: Criticism of Korean University Education from Ha-Joon Chang |
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I really enjoyed an analogy given by Ha-Joon Chang in his latest book on the continually increasing numbers of Korean students resulting in dumbed down and unnecessary numbers of University places. Of course this doesn't only apply to Korea (Canada anyone??) and its not the first time this analogy has been used.
He said it is like people standing up at a seated concert. First, some people stand up to get a better view and then everybody feels compelled to stand up to see anything at all but the end result is that everybody has a reduced quality experience because of the discomfort of continually having to stand.
Its a good read (as are all his other books). Here is a review:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/aug/29/ha-joon-chang-23-things |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Universities should be made exclusive, academically exclusive that is. Just take the top 20% of grades, or so, of high schoolers and send them to university. The rest are free to start working after high school, or go to 2 year colleges without the option of going onto university. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| My wife actually told me about this book and wants to read it. After hearing so much about it, I'm now very much interested in reading it as well. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:49 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand why so many people on Dave's are so anti university education. A lot more people graduate from university today and our society is better for it, not worse. The analogy of everyone of everyone standing up to watch the show fails because the show stays the same, but a more educated society fundamentally changes the show by pushing the boundaries of what we are capable of doing.
Have you guys ever considered that if you're average university graduates right now without a golden meal ticket, 30 years ago *you* would have been average high school graduates without same said meal ticket? But instead of having opportunities like teaching in Korea, you would have been shunted directly to the coal mine or car factory. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| I don't understand why so many people on Dave's are so anti university education. |
I don't mean to offend anyone, but doesn't many people teach English in Korea because they have a degree in a field which is over saturated? If the answer to that question is yes, than I guess it would also explain their negative perspective on excess university education.
I also agree that university is not for everyone. But I think it's important to make trade schools more respected for this to work. Society needs unskilled labour, skilled craftsmen and university educated. Too many people in one category will be suboptimal, but it can be hard to get the balance right, especially since university educated people often will be preferred for jobs which should be done by less educated people. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| UknowsI wrote: |
| silkhighway wrote: |
| I don't understand why so many people on Dave's are so anti university education. |
I don't mean to offend anyone, but doesn't many people teach English in Korea because they have a degree in a field which is over saturated? If the answer to that question is yes, than I guess it would also explain their negative perspective on excess university education. |
Possibly, but maybe this is the difference in my attitude. I see going to a foreign country to teach ESL as a *priviledge*. I think ESL teachers are very lucky they have the opportunity to go abroad to teach English and earn a respectable living doing it. It sure beats deboning salmon at the fish plant.
IF people think they are "forced" to teach ESL because there are no other opportunities, I think it's a mental state and does not have any bearing in actual reality.
| Quote: |
I also agree that university is not for everyone. But I think it's important to make trade schools more respected for this to work. Society needs unskilled labour, skilled craftsmen and university educated. Too many people in one category will be suboptimal, but it can be hard to get the balance right, especially since university educated people often will be preferred for jobs which should be done by less educated people. |
I agree university is not for everyone and the market agrees with that as well. If you're more inclined towards a trade or a roughneck job, knock yourself out. You're probably going to make a lot more money than an average BA holder. Strangely enough, people still want to go to university, including me. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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I don't mean to offend anyone, but doesn't many people teach English in Korea because they have a degree in a field which is over saturated? If the answer to that question is yes, than I guess it would also explain their negative perspective on excess university education.
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The type of courses people do nowadays is only a problem because of the numbers taking the courses not the subjects themselves. When I graduated, 10% of people went to university and Arts graduates found it pretty easy to get jobs in any business area, barring things like science and engineering. Recruiters in banking, advertising, general management, marketing, insurance etc... all asked for degrees in 'any discipline' and trained people up themselves accordingly. Somewhere along the way people decided you needed a degree in economics or business to join a company and at the same time the numbers of people going to university grew. The two were probably connected. With the huge rise in fees, combined with 50% of people going to university now in my country, everyone except the very rich will stop studying subjects like History, Geography , English etc.. in favour of vocational subjects designed for the job market. In twenty years time the vast majority of young people will be hugely ignorant in any subject that isn't connected to making money. |
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da_moler
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| What a surprise to hear that an academic from an elitist institution like Cambridge University is opposed to university education being extended to more people. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| With the huge rise in fees, combined with 50% of people going to university now in my country, everyone except the very rich will stop studying subjects like History, Geography , English etc.. in favour of vocational subjects designed for the job market. In twenty years time the vast majority of young people will be hugely ignorant in any subject that isn't connected to making money. |
...that is if you assume people must go to university to learn those things that qualify them to not be regarded as ignorant. I would argue that one does not need to attend lectures to learn much of the content of Arts courses if one is willing to invest in a library card and an internet connection. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I liked this quote the best;
the washing machine changed the world more than the internet; more education does
(from the link in the OP) |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| ...that is if you assume people must go to university to learn those things that qualify them to not be regarded as ignorant. I would argue that one does not need to attend lectures to learn much of the content of Arts courses if one is willing to invest in a library card and an internet connection. |
Libraries have existed since the written word was invented but people have always laid great store in learning from experts in the subject and the free flow and discussion of ideas. Personally I got much more from my tutorials, where this occurred, and from writing essays on the subject than I did from attending lectures. You can read a novel or about a great battle in a library or on the internet and read what others have said about it but it's difficult to start forming your own opinions on a subject without someone to discuss it with or lead you in the right direction.
You singled out Arts courses but I would argue that those subjects, which are about ideas, more than others require the presence of a teacher. I would say skills subjects such as languages, accounting etc... could be more easily learned with a library card and an internet connection. In addition people spend 3 or 4 years studying these subjects and it is unlikely that, if things pan out as I described them, people will have the time or energy to go on the internet or visit their local library for the same amount of time. While or after they have completed their 4 year course in business management.
I think it will seem pretty normal for university educated people in the future to have never read a great novel, play or poem, know much at all about history comparative religions, classical mythology or anything else that people considered standard for educated people in the past |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I think it will seem pretty normal for university educated people in the future to have never read a great novel, play or poem, know much at all about history comparative religions, classical mythology or anything else that people considered standard for educated people in the past |
I would argue that's happening now. I was in a room of NETs recently. There was a discussion being had about what our respective countries had brought to the world. Me: "Adam Smith, David Hume" and so on, and so on. Blank faces all around as to who Adam Smith and David Hume were. If people don't know at least one of two of the most extremely important modern philosophical figures who have had profound influence all across the western world (more so Smith than Hume, admittedly), it stands to reason that their knowledge of other things along similar lines will also be woefully inadequate. I've also heard English lit graduates admit they've never had to read Shakespeare or T.S. Eliot. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:31 am Post subject: |
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I actually agree with all of what has been said in this thread. I think what we are seeing nowadays is that Uni is changing its purpose. It no longer prepares people for life but rather a vocation.
In this situation - being what it is - people are going to need to use their own initiative to find information about history, politics, ... basic topics needed to not be ignorant.
Instead of a few people being well schooled and the masses largely ignorant because those few went to Uni. We will have a situation where the few who are not ignorant are the ones who decided to find the information themselves rather than went to Uni. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I think it will seem pretty normal for university educated people in the future to have never read a great novel, play or poem, know much at all about history comparative religions, classical mythology or anything else that people considered standard for educated people in the past |
I would argue that's happening now. I was in a room of NETs recently. There was a discussion being had about what our respective countries had brought to the world. Me: "Adam Smith, David Hume" and so on, and so on. Blank faces all around as to who Adam Smith and David Hume were. If people don't know at least one of two of the most extremely important modern philosophical figures who have had profound influence all across the western world (more so Smith than Hume, admittedly), it stands to reason that their knowledge of other things along similar lines will also be woefully inadequate. I've also heard English lit graduates admit they've never had to read Shakespeare or T.S. Eliot. |
+1
If people are forced to take compulsory courses in those subjects they often sleep and bluff their way through them anyway. After all they are freshmen. I never started reading anything in depth and interesting until after I graduated.
I did get ecposed to some good novels and shakespeare in High School though |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Forget the 'people standing at a concert' analogy. Chang was probably after the Tragedy of the Commons-type example created back in the 60s by Hardin. |
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