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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: On accepting responsibility... |
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From here: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2011/02/202_81382.html
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[Editorial] Safety of bullet train
The derailing last week of the bullet train near a station on the outskirts of Seoul was the cause for great alarm. A catastrophe may have been avoided by luck as the train was running at a relatively low speed of 90 kilometers per hour.
The accident was reminiscent of the 1998 derailment of a German high-speed train which killed 100 passengers. If the KTX train had been running at its full speed, a disaster might have occurred.
An initial probe showed that a loosening of one nut was responsible for the casualty-free accident.
The KTX is now entering its seventh year of operation. By 2017, passengers will be able to travel anywhere in the country within two hours thanks to the bullet train. Rotem, the manufacturer of the domestic high-speed train, should do extra homework to prevent a future malfunction.
Its trouble-free operation will ensure that potential foreign bidders of the KTX training, including Brazil and the U.S. state of California, will not have second thoughts over its safety. Precautionary steps are necessary as the thawing starts in spring after an unprecedented cold spell. Korea recorded the longest cold spell in January in three decades. A record snowfall blanked the nation�s northwestern province last week. |
Of note is the bold section. This seems endemic in Korea; the lack of taking responsibility for matters. 7 years in and they still want the manufacturer to accept blame fro a 'loose nut'. Perhaps this idea is best outlined by example:
글을 읽지 못했기 때문에 그는 학교 성적이 좋지 못했다.
Because he couldn't read, he didn't do well in school.
The idea of 못하다 can be seen twice in the sentence, meaning couldn't, but when translated, we see only one actual instance of the modal meaning 'unable due to some circumstance'. There is no incarnation of "didn't" in the sentence.
I have discussed this at length with many Koreans, and I always get the same response: "That is just how we say it in Korean." Right. "시험 잘 봤어?" 안니..시험 잘 못봤어. "Did you do well on the test? (Lit: Did you see the test well?) "No, I couldn't do well" (Lit: I couldn't see the test well").
Why not? What external force stopped you from doing well?
Never "시험 떨어졌어." or "시험 망쳤어."
I am no Korean expert, but these phrases are not strange or incorrect, but just not used. I suspect it is due to the above making the speaker responsible for the outcome 100%, something which of course, is potentially embarrassing.
What a rant, but I am so tired of this 'victim' stance so often taken in Korea. I think that standing up and taking responsibility shows maturity and well, you can draw your own conclusions from there. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you're projecting too much of the English meanings of "did not" and "could not" onto these words. In English, we tend to default to "did not" and only use "could not" if circumstances conspire to prevent us from doing something. In Korean, it seems to me that they (when talking about people) generally default to their "could not" equivalent and only use "did not" if they willfully chose not to do something. I think it's more a basic linguistic convention than trying to avoid responsibility. |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, I agree with you on your points about avoiding responsibility, but I don't think it's specific to Korea, or encoded in the language.
Also, I think you're looking at 못 vs. 안 the wrong way. It confused me at first too, but I think it's just a difference in the way Koreans use language.
In your exam example, saying 시험 잘 안 봤어 would imply that the student deliberately did badly on the test, which means 못 must be used instead, to show that the student wanted to, but couldn't (because they didn't study hard enough). There is no avoidance of responsibility, or blaming of external forces.
Also, who did the translation for 글을 읽지 못했기 때문에 그는 학교 성적이 좋지 못했다? It could just as easily mean "Because he couldn't read, he couldn't do well in school."
I hear 시험 떨어졌어 all the time too, and don't think it's an uncommon phrase |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I did and fair enough. Good points from both of you. I am no stranger to this place, but hey, I guess we are always going to learn. Thanks guys.
Still drives me nuts, even if my evidence was weak.
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| 7 years in and they still want the manufacturer to accept blame fro a 'loose nut' |
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| Rotem, the manufacturer of the domestic high-speed train, should do extra homework to prevent a future malfunction. |
Again:
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| Precautionary steps are necessary as the thawing starts in spring after an unprecedented cold spell |
Wrong. They did not want the manufacturer to accept blame. They wanted the manufacturer to be strident in preventing future accidents.
The language was quite clear.
"One thing Koreans do" is always say "sorry sorry"- I think we all are familiar with this. Who cares about "sorry sorry"? Don't make the same mistake twice.
With that in mind, good on the article for being more concerned about future prevention.
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| blame fro a 'loose nut' |
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| An initial probe showed that a loosening of one nut was responsible for the casualty-free accident. |
A loose nut might very well be the cause for such a problem, and be due to a severe design flaw. Do you know what caused the Shuttle Challenger to explode? A loose O-Ring. A simple part that serves as a connector, like a nut.
Richard Feynman showed how such a small thing could have disastrous consequences by simply taking an O-Ring and dropping it into a glass of ice water and then pulling it out and displaying its contorted shape.
Cheap wiring was the cause of the Apollo 1 disaster. Contributing to this was the fact that there was velcro everywhere.
Nothing wrong with velcro? What's the big deal? The big deal is that in a high-pressure environment of almost pure oxygen, velcro can spontaneously explode.
The point is don't dismiss loose nuts. Those things can be symptomatic of larger design flaws.
Now are those flaws necessarily the fault of the design firm? Sometimes. Other times it might be because of pressure from governments, in this case the Korean one, to pursue cheaper materials and such.
But regardless, after such incidents its always good practice for all those involved to review everything and to try to prevent such an accident from happening again. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Seems like this is a maintenance problem, not a manufacturer problem.
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| An initial probe showed that a loosening of one nut was responsible for the casualty-free accident. |
A 'loosening of one nut' should probably also be worded differently. Seems like the maintenance man said "This is too tight on here, let me loosen it up".
Said maintenance man would lose his job if it was his own doing.
Connected to the OP, I often hear "This is not my fault because... / I couldn't do this because..." when someone makes excuses for which they are directly responsible. Saving face will stop this country from reaching its true potential due fear of reprimands and punishments for incompetence. |
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jlee83
Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: On accepting responsibility... |
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| Carbon wrote: |
글을 읽지 못했기 때문에 그는 학교 성적이 좋지 못했다.
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My Korean's not that great, but I'm 100% sure native-Korean speakers don't talk like that at all. The last part is all sorts of weird/messed up Korean.
And  to 좋지.
| Carbon wrote: |
I have discussed this at length with many Koreans, and I always get the same response: "That is just how we say it in Korean." Right. "시험 잘 봤어?" 안니..시험 잘 못봤어. "Did you do well on the test? (Lit: Did you see the test well?) "No, I couldn't do well" (Lit: I couldn't see the test well").
Why not? What external force stopped you from doing well?
Never "시험 떨어졌어." or "시험 망쳤어."
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I've heard of 시험 망쳤어 plenty of times in college. And one would use the phrase "시험 떨어졌어" for exams where there is a cut-off mark (any exam where students need a certain grade to "pass/qualify").
Lastly, "시험 잘 못봤어" vs "시험 망쳤어" is not the same thing. The former implies you didn't do so well on your test, the latter means you bombed your exam. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: On accepting responsibility... |
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| jlee83 wrote: |
| Carbon wrote: |
글을 읽지 못했기 때문에 그는 학교 성적이 좋지 못했다.
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My Korean's not that great, but I'm 100% sure native-Korean speakers don't talk like that at all. The last part is all sorts of weird/messed up Korean.
And to 좋지. |
Are you so certain? I typed "좋지 못했다" into Naver and got quite a few hits. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I once was talking to a Korean coworker who was a single guy in his mid-30's. He said "결혼하지 못했어요."
Literally, "I was unable to get married."
Not "I'm single" or "I'm not married yet"--
"Unable."
I found his statement very strange at the time. Interesting to see that someone else noticed this use of 못하다. |
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