| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
edward,
I will help them in the classroom but they have to initiate. If they make mistakes I will gently correct them.
Many are unable to engage NET's outside of the classroom because they have to begin the conversation which is not how it is done in the classroom. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Fat_Elvis
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think the OP should do some research on the dogme approach to ELT started by Scott Thornbury amongst others, it sounds similar to what you're saying. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: "The Engagement Theory" of teaching ESL |
|
|
| Zackback wrote: |
For medium to high level students an effective way to teach them is to do minimal class preparation. Go into class with just a few ideas and/or worksheet/s. Too often in Korea the teacher winds up talking 90%+ of the class. What happens when Koreans MUST talk to NET's outside of class? Well they just assume that since the teacher always initiated the discussion in class the same thing will occur - but it doesn't. So as a teacher I am to emulate what takes place in the "real world". I may or may not initiate the conversation. The student ought to have the sense of engagement and be willing to approach me and begin the conversation.
If they just sit there in class and say nothing I too will say nothing. By always starting the conversation I am not teaching them properly. What I am teaching them is it is ok just to be passive and say nothing - just wait for the other guy to start the conversation. |
Sounds like a typical "teacher" justifying their own 'style', which is in actuality, a boatload of all kinds of crap. I'd call you lazy at best. Do some research, a study, get published and then we can talk about your little "theory".
In the "real world" you would be speaking Korean outside class. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaeimseu
Joined: 20 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know if the OP fits into this category, but there seems to be a lot of "expert" NETs in Korea. The textbooks and the curriculum is often "crap." the Korean teachers "suck."
I tend to agree with the poster who said to do some research first. There seem to be far to many people criticizing without any kind of credentials. If you only have a bachelor's in "anything" then you probably should be listening more and talking less when it comes to discussing education in practice.
And I'm not sure what was meant by "less preparation," but even appearing unprepared with high level students is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| What's with all the hostility? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Zackback presents a valid concern: Korean students spend SO much time studying the language, but barely any of them are able to actually use it effectively.
Is this because they are waiting for NETs to start a conversation? Part of it has to do with confidence. But planning less for your class will not make you a more effective educator and I don't see how it will translate into more well prepared students. In fact, I think it will have quite the opposite effect.
There are much more effective ways to build confidence in students than sitting back and waiting for them to initiate a conversation.
I think a lot of it has to do with teachers doing the same, predictable thing every class. How bout less bomb games and more actual teaching going on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
In the real world I speak as little Korean as possible. English is the global language. We have been in this new millennium for over 10 years now. Let's get with the program. Virtually the only reason why I bother to study/speak Korean is to impress the ladies.
Do research first? These people have been at this language spending tons of money and loads amount of time and the results are disasterous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
There are much more effective ways to build confidence in students than sitting back and waiting for them to initiate a conversation.
I think a lot of it has to do with teachers doing the same, predictable thing every class. How bout less bomb games and more actual teaching going on. |
I got the impression the OP was talking about teaching adults. You seem to be talking about kids - bomb games.
| Quote: |
| In the "real world" you would be speaking Korean outside class. |
I meet a lot of Koreans outside class through my work and they never seem to expect me to speak Korean to them. They rarely initiate conversation effectively either. They nearly always ask the same questions as openers, 'how long have you been in Korea?' followed by 'do you speak Korean?' Which incidently is a very bad way of starting a conversation with a stranger as it might easily lead to the English speaker looking stupid if they have been in the country a long time and can't speak the language. After these two questions they nearly always seem to run out of things to say. So some initiating conversation techniques would definitely be useful for Korean adults learning English. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zackback wrote: |
In the real world I speak as little Korean as possible. English is the global language. We have been in this new millennium for over 10 years now. Let's get with the program. Virtually the only reason why I bother to study/speak Korean is to impress the ladies.
Do research first? These people have been at this language spending tons of money and loads amount of time and the results are disasterous. |
The Great White Hope. I'm sure you will set the ELL world on fire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaeimseu
Joined: 20 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know that it's fair to say the results of Korea's English language programs have been disastrous. There is no doubt that the system is imperfect. I doubt a perfect system exists anywhere. I'd say it's a very ambitious undertaking to attempt teaching English to every student in the school system.
While some valid points can be made in relation to what we think is wrong with the way English is taught here, many teachers seem to believe they have the answer or the fix to the problems they perceive. And again, some of the ideas or theories might be valid, but it sounds farfetched to me for people who have been teaching here a short time to believe that they are smarter than others who have spent years researching language education. To me, there is little difference between this and people who become experts on Korean culture after they've been here a few months. [/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jaeimseu wrote: |
I don't know that it's fair to say the results of Korea's English language programs have been disastrous. There is no doubt that the system is imperfect. I doubt a perfect system exists anywhere. I'd say it's a very ambitious undertaking to attempt teaching English to every student in the school system.
While some valid points can be made in relation to what we think is wrong with the way English is taught here, many teachers seem to believe they have the answer or the fix to the problems they perceive. And again, some of the ideas or theories might be valid, but it sounds farfetched to me for people who have been teaching here a short time to believe that they are smarter than others who have spent years researching language education. To me, there is little difference between this and people who become experts on Korean culture after they've been here a few months. |
[/quote]
While I agree with most of your post, I think you may be giving a bit too much credit in saying that they've spent years researching language education, at least in regards to hagwons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaeimseu
Joined: 20 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
While I agree with most of your post, I think you may be giving a bit too much credit in saying that they've spent years researching language education, at least in regards to hagwons. |
I was speaking more in regard to professional/career educators and researchers. A large number of hagwon are owned or run by business people/entrepreneurs. I've never worked for a hagwon, so I can't speak from experience, but from what I've seen or heard secondhand, most hagwon are run as a business first. I actually don't have a huge problem with that. Parents and students can choose where they want to attend. It's up to the parents to make an informed decision about where to send their kids.
I don't think there is any problem with asking about an educational theory or questioning why something is done a certain way in the name of having a dialogue. However, it sounds presumptuous to me when someone puts forth a theory as fact, especially when part of the theory appears to be less preparation.
Anyway, I didn't mean to give or take away any credit from the hagwon industry, because I don't have firsthand knowledge or experience in hagwon.
[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
Zackback presents a valid concern: Korean students spend SO much time studying the language, but barely any of them are able to actually use it effectively.
Is this because they are waiting for NETs to start a conversation? Part of it has to do with confidence. But planning less for your class will not make you a more effective educator and I don't see how it will translate into more well prepared students. In fact, I think it will have quite the opposite effect.
There are much more effective ways to build confidence in students than sitting back and waiting for them to initiate a conversation.
I think a lot of it has to do with teachers doing the same, predictable thing every class. How bout less bomb games and more actual teaching going on. |
This.
However, I want to say that the OP is definitely on the money with his/her observations. I just don't COMPLETELY agree with his solution. But, in my EXPERIENCE (because I am no expert, but just another teacher trying to constantly reflect and improve), I have observed that sometimes I can be over prepared. That is, I can get stuck in following a set plan and forget to let things happen or progress naturally. Some of the best classes I've had were planned minimally, and the students were able to carry it away by putting themselves into the lesson, by truly becoming spontaneously student-centered.
That being said, it won't always be that way. The best classes are where I have an outline of goals and objectives, and a variety of activities that can serve as backups, and then I let the students carry it away to wherever they want.
But, it can't always be that way, because I don't believe in playing games for every class in university. This was my big issue this week, and the OP almost read my mind on the passivity point. There are times where they have to take what they learned and produce, and you cannot teach or produce everything in a speed game.
However, there are teachers who rely on these games as a centerpiece, because it boosts their popularity ratings, and that's great for them, but the teachers who are actually trying to teach a skill end up with students who experience English education as a place where you shout out one word answers and/or expect to be entertained, and then give you the bored eye when you are trying to teach them language skills that can't be taught in a game, like expressing opinions with reasoned arguments.
Lazy teaching leads to lazy students, I guess. But, before you jump on me, I don't entirely blame the ESL teacher. Most of this is the fault of the administrations, and the expectation that they put on the NETs to be "popular" to keep their jobs. And so, that's what they get: "popular" NETs and advanced university students that still make sentences without verbs, if they make sentences at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lots of very insightful comments on this thread!
I think this is a big issue and really at bottom is the question of self directed learning.
We've tried to go half way with things like Project based learning, task based stuff, collaborative learning etc... but still the teacher keeps getting in the way. Teachers tend to teach like they were taught (especially inexperienced teachers) and so we end up with high TTT and a lot of bewildered students.
I like Sugata Mitra's methodology of "I'm going away now" (see his lecture here, especially the discussion at the end. http://bit.ly/hf9aFk
More teachers have to try and step away and I think it a very valid and effective approach. In the end, what's at work in the classroom are "power" relationships. Decreasing the power of the teacher in the classroom is what's needed for less content and more skill based subjects like languages. I'd love it if more teachers could use a language lab and just have the students studying like that (and I'll mention - http://www.englishcentral.com will have a Korean lang. interface shortly).
But it is hard for change to happen. Most textbooks don't encourage the teacher to be less infront of the class and directing everything. Most admins have an expectation of the teacher yapping away in front of the students and being "busy". Even teachers I've trained over the years - fall back to their old tricks. Training just is a nice "aside" but not translated into practice. Very frustrating.... it takes leadership in the school - leadership that is very lacking.
I published my teach | learn textbook in hopes of supporting more student centeredness http://bit.ly/heLwmp . Not too optimistic but we just got to do what we can.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Great post. Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
