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Pirates kill four American civilian hostages
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Pirates kill four American civilian hostages Reply with quote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110222/ap_on_re_us/us_us_piracy

The United States strongly condemned the killing of four U.S. citizens by Somali pirates off East Africa on Tuesday and urged the world to work to bring maritime criminals to justice.

Meanwhile, the remains of the four were taken aboard the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, as were 15 suspected pirates now facing charges in the deaths.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said in a statement that the killings were "deplorable" and that they underscored the need for international cooperation on fighting the scourge of piracy in waters off the Horn of Africa.

It was the first time U.S. citizens have been killed in a wave of pirate attacks that have plagued the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean in recent years.

Clinton expressed her sympathies for the families of the victims killed aboard the pirated yacht Quest � Jean and Scott Adam, of Marina del Rey near Los Angeles, and Phyllis Macay and Bob Riggle, of Seattle, Washington.

The Adamses lived aboard the Quest and had been sailing around the world since December 2004 distributing Bibles. The yacht was hijacked Friday several hundred miles south of Oman.

President Barack Obama was awakened to news of the deaths at 4:42 a.m. Washington time Tuesday. He had authorized the military on Saturday to use force in case of an imminent threat to the hostages, said White House spokesman Jay Carney.

Marine Gen. James Mattis, commander of U.S. Central Command, said in a statement from Tampa, Fla.: "We express our deepest condolences for the innocent lives callously lost aboard the Quest."

Clinton urged international partners to provide material, financial and logistical support to an African peacekeeping mission in Somalia, the country the pirates use as the launching point of their attacks. Reports indicated that the pirates had launched from the coastal town of Harardhere, a U.S. official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

U.S. naval forces were trailing the Americans' captured yacht with the use of unmanned aerial vehicles and four warships and negotiations were under way when pirates fired toward the ship with a rocket-propelled grenade, the military said. Then gunfire was heard aboard the yacht; and when special operations forces arrived on the vessel they found the Americans had been shot, the Central Command statement said.

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Now that pirates have escalated, on the spot executions seem to be the appropriate reaction. Instead these pirates will get a lengthy court appearance, followed by decades of free medical care, food, and lodging. Hell, that's probably better than what they could ever hope for in Somalia.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Pirates kill four American civilian hostages Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Now that pirates have escalated, on the spot executions seem to be the appropriate reaction. Instead these pirates will get a lengthy court appearance, followed by decades of free medical care, food, and lodging. Hell, that's probably better than what they could ever hope for in Somalia.


I don't understand your mentality at all. If the on-the-spot execution of innocents is horrible, why would we want to emulate it? A court appearance is the best way to establish that those in captivity are in fact pirates, and they are only punished for crimes they've actually committed.
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Pirates kill four American civilian hostages Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
I don't understand your mentality at all. If the on-the-spot execution of innocents is horrible, why would we want to emulate it? A court appearance is the best way to establish that those in captivity are in fact pirates, and they are only punished for crimes they've actually committed.


Yeah, you're right. Maybe they were innocent sailors who just so happened to be on board. Maybe they really didn't mean to have guns, take civilians hostage, kill them, or shoot a RPG at a U.S. war vessel either. We should spend tens of millions and several years on a trial to be absolutely certain they weren't innocent bystanders.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Pirates kill four American civilian hostages Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Kuros wrote:
I don't understand your mentality at all. If the on-the-spot execution of innocents is horrible, why would we want to emulate it? A court appearance is the best way to establish that those in captivity are in fact pirates, and they are only punished for crimes they've actually committed.


Yeah, you're right. Maybe they were innocent sailors who just so happened to be on board. Maybe they really didn't mean to have guns, take civilians hostage, kill them, or shoot a RPG at a U.S. war vessel either. We should spend tens of millions and several years on a trial to be absolutely certain they weren't innocent bystanders.


In your haste for retribution, you want to grant a government the power to detain and punish with minimal to no accountability. These sentiments are incompatible with those a free and secure people must necessarily hold.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Pirates kill four American civilian hostages Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Kuros wrote:
I don't understand your mentality at all. If the on-the-spot execution of innocents is horrible, why would we want to emulate it? A court appearance is the best way to establish that those in captivity are in fact pirates, and they are only punished for crimes they've actually committed.


Yeah, you're right. Maybe they were innocent sailors who just so happened to be on board. Maybe they really didn't mean to have guns, take civilians hostage, kill them, or shoot a RPG at a U.S. war vessel either. We should spend tens of millions and several years on a trial to be absolutely certain they weren't innocent bystanders.


Good job in not addressing his point whatsoever.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Pirates kill four American civilian hostages Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Kuros wrote:
I don't understand your mentality at all. If the on-the-spot execution of innocents is horrible, why would we want to emulate it? A court appearance is the best way to establish that those in captivity are in fact pirates, and they are only punished for crimes they've actually committed.


Yeah, you're right. Maybe they were innocent sailors who just so happened to be on board. Maybe they really didn't mean to have guns, take civilians hostage, kill them, or shoot a RPG at a U.S. war vessel either. We should spend tens of millions and several years on a trial to be absolutely certain they weren't innocent bystanders.


Even if they are guilty, that doesn't necessarily mean their punishment should be summary execution. Our justice system isn't just about determining guilt, after all; proper sentencing is also a part of the process. One pirate was recently sentenced to 34 years in prison for example. You're essentially saying he should have just been shot in the head. That's a pretty stark change in policy.

Our legal system isn't perfect, but throwing it away and relying on some Judge Dredd style system instead isn't an improvement.
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stilicho25



Joined: 05 Apr 2010

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put me in the summary execution camp. That is the way they curtailed piracy in the 18th century, and I am sure it would work now. I quickly coming to the conclusion that human rights should be extended only to your own people, and those you have reciprical agreements with.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stilicho25 wrote:
Put me in the summary execution camp. That is the way they curtailed piracy in the 18th century, and I am sure it would work now. I quickly coming to the conclusion that human rights should be extended only to your own people, and those you have reciprical agreements with.


I think you probably need to call human rights something else if you're going to pick and choose when to apply them.
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stilicho25



Joined: 05 Apr 2010

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I guess so.
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Skyblue



Joined: 02 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the clowns on that yacht were Christians giving out bibles in remote villages. Maybe that's why they got whacked sharp-like. You've got to know the risks you're taking when you sail to Somalia with a boatload of bibles. Take your medicine. Amen.
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Illysook



Joined: 30 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are treating the pirates as the criminals that they are, they are likely to shoot a few in the process of getting the stolen ships back. Then, they'll be taken to places like Guantanamo and it's not likely that they will ever see Somalia again. Perhaps they would wish for summary execution.
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't the American government accept the bunch of Islamic government?

If America can have a good relationship with an ultra-Islamic absolute monarchist country like Saudi Arabia, I don't think there would be a problem with the Somali warlords.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 people butchered and folks are worried about the rights of the murderers. Just surreal. Establishing relationships with the warlords. Yeah that will stop it.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was blow-back from a couple of weeks ago when the South Koreans and the Malaysians slammed the pirates that had snatched their ships (and also the sentencing of a pirate to thirty years in the big house in the US). Devastating for the 4 victims and their families, but unavoidable in the circumstances.

There was a disgusting article somewhere saying the Somalis were just engaging in a 'successful business model'. It's time to string a few business majors up to lamp posts in Mogadishu, London, New York and elsewhere to demonstrate that the invisible hand of the market does not have the right to kill people, either on the high seas or in sweatshops.
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stilicho25



Joined: 05 Apr 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biz majors? Change it to bankers going to jail and I will agree. As far is it being unavoidable, I don't know what you are talking about. South Koreans defending themselves does not give the Somali's the right to kill people on the high seas. String them up.
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