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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| sadguy wrote: |
| (i know! but this (rhetorical) question was directed at mises....) |
Just pushing buttons. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I could say that, but I'm not a hippie.
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| How to impoverished kids with limited to no resources, families and communities who don't care about education, who live in a literacy vacuum, and who have unqualified/apathetic/jaded teachers... |
With the exception of families who do not care, you've described a FOTB Asian. There is no Asian education crisis.
The government can not fix parents. The schools can not fix parents.
Maybe, just maybe, we're expecting too much. Not everybody needs to be a doctor. There is demand at good wages for trades. The US needs to test for competency and then use tracking and stop being hysterical about the achievement gap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_%28education%29
http://takimag.com/article/guggenheims_waiting_for_superman_is_shoddy_filmmaking_at_best2/print
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This bad schools-bad teachers-bad unions idea (what the Chinese might call the Three Bads Theory) is now such conventional wisdom that few reviewers have noticed that this documentary fails to document visually its own thesis. I kept waiting for �Superman� to turn into an expos� featuring shocking classroom footage of bad teachers ruining the lives of innocent children. Yet, Guggenheim apparently finds his message too self-evident to bother shooting video that illustrates it. The main way I could distinguish between the bad neighborhood schools and the good charter schools shown in �Superman� is from the disapproving narration, unsettling camera angles, and ominous soundtrack versus the warm lighting and chirpy tone of voice.
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The Three Bads Theory lets liberal parents rationalize their white flight by publicly blaming teachers while they privately shun black and Latino students. |
I reckon that's pretty accurate. I am no fan of teachers unions, but only for fiscal reasons. I had good teachers and bad teachers and I plugged along just fine regardless. At the end of the day I came home to a family that was militant in academic expectations. |
I agree with most of what you are saying. As I said in my previous two posts, families need to start investing more in their children's education....A LOT MORE. I don't think it has to do with their race though, but there are a lot of other forces at work here. There are things that the government should be doing as well.
Our public education system is still designed around a factory model. Bells ring, students move around for set periods of time....This was great up until about the 1980s when America started to switch from a manufacturing economy to whatever mess we have now. Our education system does not prepare students to work or be productive members of society. We do need more students educated in trades and technology. That takes a system overhaul (which requires centralized direction) and it also needs lots of resources to keep it relevant. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
I could say that, but I'm not a hippie.
| Quote: |
| How to impoverished kids with limited to no resources, families and communities who don't care about education, who live in a literacy vacuum, and who have unqualified/apathetic/jaded teachers... |
With the exception of families who do not care, you've described a FOTB Asian. There is no Asian education crisis.
The government can not fix parents. The schools can not fix parents.
Maybe, just maybe, we're expecting too much. Not everybody needs to be a doctor. There is demand at good wages for trades. The US needs to test for competency and then use tracking and stop being hysterical about the achievement gap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_%28education%29
http://takimag.com/article/guggenheims_waiting_for_superman_is_shoddy_filmmaking_at_best2/print
| Quote: |
This bad schools-bad teachers-bad unions idea (what the Chinese might call the Three Bads Theory) is now such conventional wisdom that few reviewers have noticed that this documentary fails to document visually its own thesis. I kept waiting for �Superman� to turn into an expos� featuring shocking classroom footage of bad teachers ruining the lives of innocent children. Yet, Guggenheim apparently finds his message too self-evident to bother shooting video that illustrates it. The main way I could distinguish between the bad neighborhood schools and the good charter schools shown in �Superman� is from the disapproving narration, unsettling camera angles, and ominous soundtrack versus the warm lighting and chirpy tone of voice.
...
The Three Bads Theory lets liberal parents rationalize their white flight by publicly blaming teachers while they privately shun black and Latino students. |
I reckon that's pretty accurate. I am no fan of teachers unions, but only for fiscal reasons. I had good teachers and bad teachers and I plugged along just fine regardless. At the end of the day I came home to a family that was militant in academic expectations. |
I agree with most of what you are saying. As I said in my previous two posts, families need to start investing more in their children's education....A LOT MORE. I don't think it has to do with their race though, but there are a lot of other forces at work here. There are things that the government should be doing as well.
Our public education system is still designed around a factory model. Bells ring, students move around for set periods of time....This was great up until about the 1980s when America started to switch from a manufacturing economy to whatever mess we have now. Our education system does not prepare students to work or be productive members of society. We do need more students educated in trades and technology. That takes a system overhaul (which requires centralized direction) and it also needs lots of resources to keep it relevant. |
In TN we still have an agrarian type calendar, as does most of the south. It can and should be revamped to better prepare kids for today's world. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd like to see radical decentralization. A cooperative model where the parents (the ones who can get off the sofa and make it to a meeting) have near total control over everything - including hiring, firing, curriculum, budgeting. Having a kid in the school would be like having equity in a company. The school district would ensure a minor level of boundaries. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I'd like to see radical decentralization. A cooperative model where the parents (the ones who can get off the sofa and make it to a meeting) have near total control over everything - including hiring, firing, curriculum, budgeting. Having a kid in the school would be like having equity in a company. The school district would ensure a minor level of boundaries. |
Parents don't even come to PTA meetings. What on earth would make you think they would take on a massive role like this? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| I'd like to see radical decentralization. A cooperative model where the parents (the ones who can get off the sofa and make it to a meeting) have near total control over everything - including hiring, firing, curriculum, budgeting. Having a kid in the school would be like having equity in a company. The school district would ensure a minor level of boundaries. |
Parents don't even come to PTA meetings. What on earth would make you think they would take on a massive role like this? |
Civic participation is correlated with the ability to shape outcomes. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| I'd like to see radical decentralization. A cooperative model where the parents (the ones who can get off the sofa and make it to a meeting) have near total control over everything - including hiring, firing, curriculum, budgeting. Having a kid in the school would be like having equity in a company. The school district would ensure a minor level of boundaries. |
Parents don't even come to PTA meetings. What on earth would make you think they would take on a massive role like this? |
I think that's kind of his point. So many families just don't give a crap. They are all just "Waiting for Superman". They want some super teacher, super principal or super handout to swoop into their neighborhood and rescue the school and students.
Education doesn't work like that. It takes constant effort and push from families, schools and the community. If only one or even two is pushing for it, it still isn't going to work well. It takes all three.
Edit: I forgot to add having the students have some kind of internal motivation too. That helps as well...but that might fall under the realm of families. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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^ Right. If the school sucks fix it. If you can't fix it, find the problem and isolate it and do they best you can. I do not believe parents would be totally MIA.
Last edited by mises on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| I'd like to see radical decentralization. A cooperative model where the parents (the ones who can get off the sofa and make it to a meeting) have near total control over everything - including hiring, firing, curriculum, budgeting. Having a kid in the school would be like having equity in a company. The school district would ensure a minor level of boundaries. |
Parents don't even come to PTA meetings. What on earth would make you think they would take on a massive role like this? |
I think that's kind of his point. So many families just don't give a crap. They are all just "Waiting for Superman". They want some super teacher, super principal or super handout to swoop into their neighborhood and rescue the school and students.
Education doesn't work like that. It takes constant effort and push from families, schools and the community. If only one or even two is pushing for it, it still isn't going to work well. It takes all three.
Edit: I forgot to add having the students have some kind of internal motivation too. That helps as well...but that might fall under the realm of families. |
I agree completly. |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Bateman wrote: |
| kimchi_pizza wrote: |
| interestedinhanguk wrote: |
| That's ridiculous. People were still drinking out of water fountains based on color and blacks rode in the back of the bus. Yea, sure, it's better than slavery. But seriously, calling it good in any way is ridiculous. Go ask 10 black people who lived through the 50s if that was a good time for them. |
It was good in that it provided a challenge to the black race which they understood and stood up to. And suceeded to.
Sorry hanguk that you seem to take this so personally when I have a feeling you're neither black nor white but simply want to vent based on your own ill treatment. It happens to us all. Even I, a stereotypical "w.a.s.p.", was wrongfully arrested and incarcerated but I hold no ill will. |
Let me see if I follow your logic.
1940's and 50's America was a good time for everyone.
It was even good for people that are often considered to have suffered (minorities) because they had a challenge to stand up to.
Ergo:
In present day America the majority of people are often considered to be suffering in some way and have a challenge to stand up to.
Present day America is an AMAZING time for everyone.
| kimchi_pizza wrote: |
It was a trully great time for Americans, but do you know why? We, I mean I'm American as well, won a great war. "To the victor belong the spoils" and we gained a great victory and great wealth. But that wealth , taken from Nazi Germany, once belonged to slain Jews. That's why the U.S. is beholden to Jewish interests wether we like it or not. |
Let me get this straight, Post World War II America flourished economically because of contra-banded Jewish wealth? And, you think America is so invested in Israel because the gold fillings taken from Holocaust victims made the U.S. the number 1 superpower? |
I know this is WAY off topic and don't want to derail this thread any further so I'll just keep it short in reply.
To think that 5/6,000,000 people possessed only gold fillings is...naive at best. All their assets went somewhere, where else other than the purse of the power that took more than their lives.
That's all I've got to say. Have a good one! |
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rockymtn
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Its impossible for public schooling to close the socioeconomic achievement gap. Even Obama gets this and has spoken about it: education starts and is reinforced in the home. And the proclivity for educational achievement is not equally distributed among parents. |
I would disagree, I've been to a low ses school that out performing 90% of the schools in the state. Most the kids are hispanic & white. It's a dual language school & classes can be taught all in Spanish or English. Kids wear uniforms, parents are required to volunteer, the 2 principals know their stuff and they have 2 master teachers training and helping other teachers. Principals are good leaders, they make their direction and everyone follows. It's an amazing system that's tight with the community. These kids & teachers don't worry about state testing, b/c over 90% of them pass it every year. There a waiting list of families trying to get their kids in.
It can happen. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ Is there an entrance exam? |
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shinramyun
Joined: 31 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Proof that american kids are getting dumber every year. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Modern American kids do poorly in school because modern American parents do a comparatively poor job of raising them. It's something of a simplification, but that's all it eventually comes down to. Educational reform might be able to tweak results a little bit, but at its core, a nation's educational results ultimately stem from that nation's culture. This is also why subgroups that attend the same school will often have statistically different results.
Playing with different educational systems might patch things up a bit, and a truly special teacher who essentially does the parent's job for them and puts in effort totally incommensurate to the salary they receive can at times make a difference, but ultimately the average American parent needs to do a better job of instilling the proper values in their child. |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:45 am Post subject: |
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I still haven't watched the documentary yet but just wanna chime in here a bit...
Public education started out with the best intentions, of educating the youth but it has now mutated into keeping them occupied and out of trouble (for the time being). It's gone from welcoming to coercion and force.
Parental involment should remain at home. Welcoming it into the educational system is it's downfall. Parents are emotional beings and their
love prevents them from acknowledging certain truths about their child
which, in their pride, will find fault elsewhere. They must TRUST their teachers.
Then thats when the next problem arises, how well do they trust the system and another person, a teacher, expected to give their child a fair, kind, good
and thorough education? They barely know the teacher at all in most
cases and so doubt and suspicions arises. |
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