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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| When did I say that? I'm saying that without people who only care about job credentials seeking admission, the demand would be much lower, and the cost would reflect that. |
Is that the way it works? |
Yes. |
I'm not so sure. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
It's not about finding exceptions. It's about two entirely different means of determining the value of an education. |
I don't find a degree worthwhile if you could get the same or better results (both job related or non-job-related) by other means of study while sacrificing less money and time.
How do you value education?
| Fox wrote: |
You're directly equating whether or not a degree is "worthwhile" with how it affects your employment situation.
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What can a degree do except increase your status, hang on the wall, or improve your employment situation? Knowledge and experiences can certainly change other things, but a degree in itself doesn't have many other applications. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| UknowsI wrote: |
I don't find a degree worthwhile if you could get the same or better results (both job related or non-job-related) by other means of study while sacrificing less money and time. |
Of course if you could get better results in every conceivable way -- work related or otherwise -- through other means of study those other ways would be superior. You're essentially saying, "I find a degree worthwhile if there are no better alternatives in any sense of the term." That's not very meaningful or informative. If you want to defend your case, you're going to have to defend this idea that studying alone in a library can create equal or better results than studying under the guidance of an expert in the field in question and interaction with peers who are studying a similar curriculum.
| UknowsI wrote: |
| How do you value education? |
Education's value lies primarily in its ability to help you live well. By this I emphatically do not mean living well from a financial perspective, but rather in fully developing as a human being. Liberal Arts degrees can obviously fail in this endeavor, but any "uselessness" that derives from that failure has nothing to do with employment opportunities, because employment never should have been the point.
| UknowsI wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
You're directly equating whether or not a degree is "worthwhile" with how it affects your employment situation.
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What can a degree do except increase your status, hang on the wall, or improve your employment situation? Knowledge and experiences can certainly change other things, but a degree in itself doesn't have many other applications. |
The degree is earned in the process of gaining that knowledge and those experiences. Obviously I'm not saying the piece of paper in itself is meaningful; when I speak of a degree, I am speaking of what is acquired in the process in terms of knowledge, ability, and experience. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Education's value lies primarily in its ability to help you live well. By this I emphatically do not mean living well from a financial perspective, but rather in fully developing as a human being. Liberal Arts degrees can obviously fail in this endeavor, but any "uselessness" that derives from that failure has nothing to do with employment opportunities, because employment never should have been the point.
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Who has the luxury to do 4 years worth of study and not at all worry about how it will afffect their means to provide a living? Universities don't exist in a vacuum from the rest of the world despite some academics wishing they did. There's a balance needed between practicality and idealism. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| Who has the luxury to do 4 years worth of study and not at all worry about how it will afffect their means to provide a living? |
Kids who want to put off dealing with the real world for another 4 years and would feel silly staying in high school.
That's their target market. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
Who has the luxury to do 4 years worth of study and not at all worry about how it will afffect their means to provide a living? |
Anyone who is both employable and not a debtor that consistently lives beyond their means.
| silkhighway wrote: |
| There's a balance needed between practicality and idealism. |
Yes, a balance is needed between practicality and idealism, which is why taking out student loans to study such things is generally unwise. It's really not at all difficult to save up some money and go to university if that's what you want to do, though, and it's not going to be some sort of knock-out blow to your standard of living afterward if you finance it with saved cash instead of debt (and that ignores the possibility of grants, scholarships, and financial aid).
I suppose if your mindset is, "Every day I spend on something other than working my way up the career ladder is a day lost," yeah, it's inexcusable to take a few years off to attend university in such a fashion. That's the mindset I'm opposing here, though, so of course I don't find such an idea very persuasive. |
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pangaea
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:31 am Post subject: |
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silkhighway wrote:
| Quote: |
| Who has the luxury to do 4 years worth of study and not at all worry about how it will afffect their means to provide a living? Universities don't exist in a vacuum from the rest of the world despite some academics wishing they did. There's a balance needed between practicality and idealism. |
+ 1
One of the roles of a university is to produce well-rounded individuals with a broad base of knowledge in a range of subjects and to equip them with the skills to think critically and communicate effectively. However, it is understood that these well-rounded individuals will need jobs after they graduate. People go to a university to increase their knowledge with the expectation that they will one day be employed in their chosen field. Insisting that is not or should not be the case does not make it true. I didn't take on a five figure debt so I could discuss philosophy while serving lattes at Starbucks for $7.50 an hour.
Fox wrote:
| Quote: |
| Education's value lies primarily in its ability to help you live well. By this I emphatically do not mean living well from a financial perspective, but rather in fully developing as a human being. Liberal Arts degrees can obviously fail in this endeavor, but any "uselessness" that derives from that failure has nothing to do with employment opportunities, because employment never should have been the point |
Spoken like someone who has never had to worry about money. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| pangaea wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Education's value lies primarily in its ability to help you live well. By this I emphatically do not mean living well from a financial perspective, but rather in fully developing as a human being. Liberal Arts degrees can obviously fail in this endeavor, but any "uselessness" that derives from that failure has nothing to do with employment opportunities, because employment never should have been the point |
Spoken like someone who has never had to worry about money. |
Cry my a river. Can you argue that he's wrong though? Instead of whining and saying the same thing over and over?
My own personal story: I received a BA in history with around 5K in debt. Paid it off my first year working in Korea. After Korea and a few adventures, I ended up working in the private sector with a decent job. How? Starting at the bottom level of an import company, showing I had a brain and was competent, and was promoted to a better paying position within the company. I've since moved on to grad school and now work in the public sector.
If not for that BA, I would not have been able to get a job in Korea. Thanks to that BA, I developed strong enough writing skills that I've become the "go to" person for writing and editing documents in every office I've worked in since college. My degree in history has also enabled me to more effectively write convincing arguments/justifications/etc in my professional life (and more importantly, on the CE Forum!).
That being said, I understand where you're coming from. Too many people have this naive idea that any college degree in any subject will lead to a good, stable job that pays well. Obviously that isn't the case. On the other hand, I am a firm believer that if you have the right skills and tools, you will eventually land on your feet just fine. Perhaps I'm the stereotypical naive, American optimist.  |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| UknowsI wrote: |
| How do you value education? |
Education's value lies primarily in its ability to help you live well. By this I emphatically do not mean living well from a financial perspective, but rather in fully developing as a human being. Liberal Arts degrees can obviously fail in this endeavor, but any "uselessness" that derives from that failure has nothing to do with employment opportunities, because employment never should have been the point.
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Thank you for a clarification.
| Fox wrote: |
| It's about two entirely different means of determining the value of an education. |
I agree
| Fox wrote: |
| UknowsI wrote: |
I don't find a degree worthwhile if you could get the same or better results (both job related or non-job-related) by other means of study while sacrificing less money and time. |
Of course if you could get better results in every conceivable way -- work related or otherwise -- through other means of study those other ways would be superior. You're essentially saying, "I find a degree worthwhile if there are no better alternatives in any sense of the term." That's not very meaningful or informative. If you want to defend your case, you're going to have to defend this idea that studying alone in a library can create equal or better results than studying under the guidance of an expert in the field in question and interaction with peers who are studying a similar curriculum.
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In my experience, the guidance of an expert in the field during my undergraduate studies could easily be replaced (and often was) by simply reading the textbook. In theory a professor should be able to give you more perspectives and understand the subject better, but in my experience they are usually just rephrasing the book (This might be different at other uni's and in other fields). Peer interaction from focused student clubs is in my experience much more valuable then your regular classmates. What I was trying to point at here was that taking a degree in a more employable field while reading books and attending student clubs for your interests can often give you both employable skills and fulfill your interest. This obviously requires some more dedication than simply passing through a degree program, and my argument become void since you put little value in employability and all of these measures could be taken while attending a degree program in a field without future employability.
Last edited by UknowsI on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:14 am; edited 3 times in total |
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pangaea
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:08 am Post subject: |
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My point is that, regardless of what one person thinks that a university should or should not be, people go to college so that they will be employable in the future. Many people save for their children's education for years, then send them off to college when they are of age. Why? So their children will be employable.
Of course the college experience has many more benefits than just the ability to obtain a job after graduation. However, having a job is still the point of getting an education in the first place. Find one parent who has saved up a college fund throughout the entire lifetime of their child and wants to dump it at some university just so their child can "live well." Find one struggling college student who works two jobs and and is going deep into debt for his education. Think he will tell you that he is only doing if for personal enrichment? I doubt it. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
My own personal story: I received a BA in history with around 5K in debt. Paid it off my first year working in Korea. Starting at the bottom level of an import company, showing I had a brain and was competent, and was promoted to a better paying position within the company.
If not for that BA, I would not have been able to get a job in Korea. Thanks to that BA, I developed strong enough writing skills that I've become the "go to" person for writing and editing documents in every office I've worked in since college. My degree in history has also enabled me to more effectively write convincing arguments/justifications/etc in my professional life (and more importantly, on the CE Forum!).
On the other hand, I am a firm believer that if you have the right skills and tools, you will eventually land on your feet just fine. |
A few amiable comments on your abbreviated life story.
You took quite a risk in coming to Korea, away from all the networks built at varsity. Possibly without perceiving at the time, you spurned a potential life partner who turned to someone else in your absence.
You quickly landed on your feet in the real world. But wasn't that a function of your own personal qualities? I mean a more work relevant degree wouldn't have hurt, would it?
Tell you what Bum, I think that you are a naturally good writer. Because I know plenty of liberal art degree holders who are pretty ordinary at this and have remained so in the face of time. That's not to say they haven't benefitted in full from the mind expansion that an arts degree affords.
In short, I doubt that the two are indelibly linked.
That is to say a gift for writing doesn't necessarily correlate with the humanities. I mean a fine arts degree doesn't always result in a great painter. Or the world's most famous painters didn't always have a degree.
Degrees in Economics, Law, Mathematics etc give the same reasoning ability of a major in English or History, I believe.
Going to varsity straight after school is a shortcut into the old school tie fraternity, shooting up the social ladder. The actual degree you could have got all by yourself via a distance college . |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| pangaea wrote: |
| My point is that, regardless of what one person thinks that a university should or should not be, people go to college so that they will be employable in the future. |
Liberal arts graduates do eventually find jobs. But do you even know what 'liberal arts' means? It means an education worthy of a free person. Minimal due diligence reveals that the primary aim of a liberal arts education is not a high starting salary.
Your position seems to be that all education should be first and foremost vocational. This is a kind of reverse snobbery.
| pangaea wrote: |
| Find one struggling college student who works two jobs and and is going deep into debt for his education. Think he will tell you that he is only doing if for personal enrichment? |
Wait, what? Why are we only catering to one kind of college student? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| You took quite a risk in coming to Korea, away from all the networks built at varsity. Possibly without perceiving at the time, you spurned a potential life partner who turned to someone else in your absence. |
Ha, given how anti-social I was at the time, I am pretty certain I didn't spurn a potential life partner.
| Quote: |
| You quickly landed on your feet in the real world. But wasn't that a function of your own personal qualities? I mean a more work relevant degree wouldn't have hurt, would it? |
Nope, it certainly wouldn't have hurt. I am not arguing that whatsoever.
| Quote: |
Tell you what Bum, I think that you are a naturally good writer. Because I know plenty of liberal art degree holders who are pretty ordinary at this and have remained so in the face of time. That's not to say they haven't benefitted in full from the mind expansion that an arts degree affords.
In short, I doubt that the two are indelibly linked.
That is to say a gift for writing doesn't necessarily correlate with the humanities. I mean a fine arts degree doesn't always result in a great painter. Or the world's most famous painters didn't always have a degree. |
Well yes, I wouldn't argue with that. Nevertheless that education will help a person elevate him or herself above another with the same natural talent but who does not have that degree.
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| Degrees in Economics, Law, Mathematics etc give the same reasoning ability of a major in English or History, I believe. |
Hmm, I don't know about that. I'm not familiar enough with Mathematics to comment on that one, but econ? I'm skeptical about that. Law, certainly, but in order to get a JD, one needs a BA first (at least in the USA). And what do many lawyers get that BA in? The humanities or social sciences.
| Quote: |
| Going to varsity straight after school is a shortcut into the old school tie fraternity, shooting up the social ladder. The actual degree you could have got all by yourself via a distance college . |
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. I could have received a degree some other way but wouldn't have had the connections I gained from going to the particular college I went to? Like I said, I was pretty anti-social back in the day. In terms of networking, I might as well have received my degree online. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
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| Degrees in Economics, Law, Mathematics etc give the same reasoning ability of a major in English or History, I believe. |
Hmm, I don't know about that. I'm not familiar enough with Mathematics to comment on that one, but econ? I'm skeptical about that. Law, certainly, but in order to get a JD, one needs a BA first (at least in the USA). And what do many lawyers get that BA in? The humanities or social sciences. |
A BS is an accepted and solid preparation for law school. You certainly need to have a BS if you want to practice patent law. I would recommend any future lawyers minor in Spanish, and then you'll never lack business. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Degrees in Economics, Law, Mathematics etc give the same reasoning ability of a major in English or History, I believe. |
Hmm, I don't know about that. I'm not familiar enough with Mathematics to comment on that one, but econ? I'm skeptical about that. Law, certainly, but in order to get a JD, one needs a BA first (at least in the USA). And what do many lawyers get that BA in? The humanities or social sciences. |
A BS is an accepted and solid preparation for law school. You certainly need to have a BS if you want to practice patent law. I would recommend any future lawyers minor in Spanish, and then you'll never lack business. |
Yes, sorry, I should have said an undergrad degree. And yes, don't most patent lawyers have a BS in engineering or physics? |
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