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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Don't you see the irony in calling out libertarians as extremists who label others as extremists? Here's some friendly advice. Make your case, just like a prosecutor would on cross-examination of a defense witness, but stop just before your last sentence. The circumstances here are even less favorable. When you try to make the finishing blow, it just gets buried under a litany of replies.
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It is true even if it is ironic. Anyone who deems taxation theft and/or advocates a return to gold is an extremist, ie they are far far out of the mainstream of political thinking. |
Why should what is mainstream become the barometer of truth? |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Don't you see the irony in calling out libertarians as extremists who label others as extremists? Here's some friendly advice. Make your case, just like a prosecutor would on cross-examination of a defense witness, but stop just before your last sentence. The circumstances here are even less favorable. When you try to make the finishing blow, it just gets buried under a litany of replies.
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It is true even if it is ironic. Anyone who deems taxation theft and/or advocates a return to gold is an extremist, ie they are far far out of the mainstream of political thinking. |
Why should what is mainstream become the barometer of truth? |
Extremism is not related to truth. It is a relative term. Obviously I think of deeming taxation theft and advocating a return to the gold standard as horrible ideas. But they are not untrue, as they are opinions and not statements of fact. If you want to say validity, then I think you're right. Validity and popularity are not mutually exclusive. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| Obviously I think of deeming taxation theft and advocating a return to the gold standard as horrible ideas. |
I agree, but the status quo is just as bad. The welfare state has run into the ground and we get the same late 20-something early 30-something cries for more services and reduced taxes even though its our generation that will suffer.
Status quo biases will not be welcomed on this forum. We tolerate the crazies because at least they, too, take us away from the madness of the MSM. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
It is true even if it is ironic. Anyone who deems taxation theft and/or advocates a return to gold is an extremist, ie they are far far out of the mainstream of political thinking. |
...and the debt as money system? Certainly it is an extremist monetary system? |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
It is true even if it is ironic. Anyone who deems taxation theft and/or advocates a return to gold is an extremist, ie they are far far out of the mainstream of political thinking. |
...and the debt as money system? Certainly it is an extremist monetary system? |
| Quote: |
The principal form of currency in the United Stated consists of Federal Reserve Notes. These notes are by law "legal tender," which is to say they may be used to satisfy obligations denominated in dollars. Should a suit arise over a commercial or public transaction, the law holds that a monetary obligation is satisfied if these notes have been "tendered" in the correct amount. Payment cannot be refused on the grounds that these are not money. This is the same thing as saying that they are "lawful money."
A great deal of concern is often expressed about what "backs" Federal Reserve Notes. Technically, the notes are collateralized by holdings of securities -- mostly those of the United States government. Many people, however, feel that this begs the question. What then "backs" the securities that back the Notes?
The short answer is nothing. There are no real assets, public or private, that are specifically pledged to collateralize the debt of the government. The government borrows on its "full faith and credit," which is to say that it borrows as long as everyone thinks it is able to service the debt. This means that ultimately nothing backs the money (except the full faith and credit of the government).
The lack of backing, however has no bearing on the suitability of Federal Reserve Notes as currency. Money exists to facilitate exchange, functioning as a "medium" or middle part of a transaction. In a modern economy, every time someone purchases something, he engages in half of an exchange: one thing of inherent value has changed hands, with the buyer getting what he wants, but the seller still looking to get something of value in return. Money is a token given the seller signifying that he is still owed something of value. A transferable IOU is ideal for this purpose.
The government creates money out of nothing in order to purchase goods and services of value. The note that it pays with is basically an IOU. Anyone who owes the government taxes, dues, or fees can return the note and have his obligation canceled.
Such money is said to be "fiat" money. It does not have any intrinsic value as a commodity itself, and is said to be produced and introduced by fiat of the government. Fiat money, therefore, is a debt of the government. Like any other debt from a creditworthy borrower, these IOUs are assets to those who hold them. Thus, these evidences of debt are usually well-suited and widely used to settle accounts. The fact that the note can be transferred to others who might use it in their transactions with the government makes it perfect for effecting private exchanges.
Debt makes good money because the debt of one person or institution is an asset to whomever it is owed. Consequently, the debt can be used for exchange by the creditor (the individual who holds the debt), and then in turn by the person who receives it, and so on. When finally the chain of transactions comes round to the original issuer (the debtor), the debt can be canceled against whatever obligation one has toward the issuer, and the series of exchanges becomes complete.
Consequently, Federal Reserve Notes and other paper money are indeed "unbacked" IOUs. The fact that they are IOUs is the very thing that makes them suitable to be money. |
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm#hd13 |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
It is true even if it is ironic. Anyone who deems taxation theft and/or advocates a return to gold is an extremist, ie they are far far out of the mainstream of political thinking. |
...and the debt as money system? Certainly it is an extremist monetary system? |
Compared to what? Gold standard? Bretton Woods? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: |
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A forehead-slapping blunder on the DVD and Blu-ray packaging for Atlas Shrugged: Part 1 � based on Ayn Rand's 1957 novel advocating "rational self-interest" � has resulted in a call for corrections to 100,000 copies.
While Rand argued in her book that "individualism" and the pursuit of one's own happiness should be society's motivating force, the marketing team behind the critically panned 2011 film adaptation were "mortified" when they discovered a misprinted synopsis stating the opposite.
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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A forehead-slapping blunder on the DVD and Blu-ray packaging for Atlas Shrugged: Part 1 � based on Ayn Rand's 1957 novel advocating "rational self-interest" � has resulted in a call for corrections to 100,000 copies.
While Rand argued in her book that "individualism" and the pursuit of one's own happiness should be society's motivating force, the marketing team behind the critically panned 2011 film adaptation were "mortified" when they discovered a misprinted synopsis stating the opposite.
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Wow, that is pathetic. I know the movie was a flop but that doesn't excuse "self-sacrifice" printed on the synopsis. I still have yet to download and watch the movie. |
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Fat_Elvis
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto
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