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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Well now... that certainly was a rebuttal. I'm hash that would be served to stray dogs.... because... I've read his book and found it to be a lot of rubbish AND know that points in it have been proven to be false.
Tell ya what, you bring him to the school yard fight and I'll bring Optimus Prime... then we can have a good old fashioned brawl.
lol
Seriously, is this how you discuss an issue? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:52 am Post subject: |
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If I may interrupt for a moment...
Given the violent events of the last year, and with tensions as high as they have been in decades (or even higher), I'm not surprised the government cracked down. I'm not saying I entirely agree, but it is understandable in this situation. It's not only the government; the public has also undergone a sea-change in attitude toward the North since I arrived. The casual acceptance of the Nork line is no where near as common as it was a few years ago. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Well now... that certainly was a rebuttal. I'm hash that would be served to stray dogs.... because... I've read his book and found it to be a lot of rubbish AND know that points in it have been proven to be false.
Tell ya what, you bring him to the school yard fight and I'll bring Optimus Prime... then we can have a good old fashioned brawl.
lol
Seriously, is this how you discuss an issue? |
Yeah alright Captn I acknowledge I went a little overboard on the hyperbole. However, there are some people who jump in with no discussion etiquette whatsoever, and then you'll go silent and let them carry on, so where are your concerns for a proper discussion at that point? -so your credibility there is a bit thin, in other words if an issue hasn't been proven but simply hijacked, you've seemed content to let it rest at that. Now, to get back, I know people who have witnessed the kangaroo courts and can attest to the veracity of the main points of the book. Yeah, we now know that Kim asked Stalin and Mao for permission to cross the border, but it's also understandable that if you froze your ass off in Manchuria fighting a resistance against the occupation of your homeland, only to see the same players reinstated who then proceed to beat down your countrymen, you might not be content to just watch that go down from the sidelines. Everyone who lives in the ROK knows there still exists an extreme culture of suppression via conformity. The Kwangju uprisings of the 80's attests to the fact that ROK citizens harbored deep-seated resentment towards the military dictatorship that had been set up by the US which had been made possible by the brutal suppression of protests and demonstrations starting in 1945. It has been confirmed that Syngman Rhee had his political rivals murdered, including framing Cho Bong-am in the Supreme Court on trumped up charges of spying for and receiving funds from the North, leading to his state sanctioned execution.
The conservative old boy faction of the ROK gov't knows that if they aren't careful to cover their footprints, there could be another massive popular uprising against them. Now your approach on these forums has often been to ignore the totality of valid points made, and then try to argue against a single point, then claim that you have disproven the whole thing. That's why I don't give you much credibility, 'tho you are leagues above a couple of others on this thread in terms of basic etiquette. I've sat down to lunch with a former general who regreted throttling ROK citizens with his own hands. I really don't have time for people who claim to know better than proven researchers who deal with primary sources or the people who were actually there. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
Well now... that certainly was a rebuttal. I'm hash that would be served to stray dogs.... because... I've read his book and found it to be a lot of rubbish AND know that points in it have been proven to be false.
Tell ya what, you bring him to the school yard fight and I'll bring Optimus Prime... then we can have a good old fashioned brawl.
lol
Seriously, is this how you discuss an issue? |
Yeah alright Captn I acknowledge I went a little overboard on the hyperbole. However, there are some people who jump in with no discussion etiquette whatsoever, and then you'll go silent and let them carry on, so where are your concerns for a proper discussion at that point? -so your credibility there is a bit thin, in other words if an issue hasn't been proven but simply hijacked, you've seemed content to let it rest at that. Now, to get back, I know people who have witnessed the kangaroo courts and can attest to the veracity of the main points of the book. Yeah, we now know that Kim asked Stalin and Mao for permission to cross the border, but it's also understandable that if you froze your ass off in Manchuria fighting a resistance against the occupation of your homeland, only to see the same players reinstated who then proceed to beat down your countrymen, you might not be content to just watch that go down from the sidelines. Everyone who lives in the ROK knows there still exists an extreme culture of suppression via conformity. The Kwangju uprisings of the 80's attests to the fact that ROK citizens harbored deep-seated resentment towards the military dictatorship that had been set up by the US which had been made possible by the brutal suppression of protests and demonstrations starting in 1945. It has been confirmed that Syngman Rhee had his political rivals murdered, including framing Cho Bong-am in the Supreme Court on trumped up charges of spying for and receiving funds from the North, leading to his state sanctioned execution. |
legrande,
The problem is that you are using the brutality of the Rhee government to justify the invasion of June 25, 1950. What hampers your case is that the regime to the North was also authoritarian and it remains so today.
| Quote: |
The conservative old boy faction of the ROK gov't knows that if they aren't careful to cover their footprints, there could be another massive popular uprising against them. |
Yes, they can be voted out of power. An option their Northern bretheren do not have. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
Well now... that certainly was a rebuttal. I'm hash that would be served to stray dogs.... because... I've read his book and found it to be a lot of rubbish AND know that points in it have been proven to be false.
Tell ya what, you bring him to the school yard fight and I'll bring Optimus Prime... then we can have a good old fashioned brawl.
lol
Seriously, is this how you discuss an issue? |
Yeah alright Captn I acknowledge I went a little overboard on the hyperbole. However, there are some people who jump in with no discussion etiquette whatsoever, and then you'll go silent and let them carry on, so where are your concerns for a proper discussion at that point? -so your credibility there is a bit thin, in other words if an issue hasn't been proven but simply hijacked, you've seemed content to let it rest at that. Now, to get back, I know people who have witnessed the kangaroo courts and can attest to the veracity of the main points of the book. Yeah, we now know that Kim asked Stalin and Mao for permission to cross the border, but it's also understandable that if you froze your ass off in Manchuria fighting a resistance against the occupation of your homeland, only to see the same players reinstated who then proceed to beat down your countrymen, you might not be content to just watch that go down from the sidelines. Everyone who lives in the ROK knows there still exists an extreme culture of suppression via conformity. The Kwangju uprisings of the 80's attests to the fact that ROK citizens harbored deep-seated resentment towards the military dictatorship that had been set up by the US which had been made possible by the brutal suppression of protests and demonstrations starting in 1945. It has been confirmed that Syngman Rhee had his political rivals murdered, including framing Cho Bong-am in the Supreme Court on trumped up charges of spying for and receiving funds from the North, leading to his state sanctioned execution.
The conservative old boy faction of the ROK gov't knows that if they aren't careful to cover their footprints, there could be another massive popular uprising against them. Now your approach on these forums has often been to ignore the totality of valid points made, and then try to argue against a single point, then claim that you have disproven the whole thing. That's why I don't give you much credibility, 'tho you are leagues above a couple of others on this thread in terms of basic etiquette. I've sat down to lunch with a former general who regreted throttling ROK citizens with his own hands. I really don't have time for people who claim to know better than proven researchers who deal with primary sources or the people who were actually there. |
This is what bothers me about Leftist theories... that there is only ONE way that things can be.
You take a very interesting premise, that Kim was angered by seeing the 'Japanese power structure' stay intact in the South and squash any opposition, and then purport it as THE reasoning.
You totally gloss over the points of wanting to reunify the peninsula under the rule of a megalomaniac. Or the fact that Kim himself was inserted by the Soviets.
It's no surprise that you are a fan of Cummings - you write/think exactly like him.
Annoying as hell.
Too bad too, because you both bring up some interesting points - just too blinded to see that they may be part of a greater whole.
| Quote: |
| Now your approach on these forums has often been to ignore the totality of valid points made, and then try to argue against a single point, then claim that you have disproven the whole thing. That's why I don't give you much credibility, |
If the foundation is built on a faulty assumption/logic/fact, then the outcome is flawed.
You can't get away with asking people to ignore that. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="catman"]
| legrande wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
Well now... that certainly was a rebuttal. I'm hash that would be served to stray dogs.... because... I've read his book and found it to be a lot of rubbish AND know that points in it have been proven to be false.
Tell ya what, you bring him to the school yard fight and I'll bring Optimus Prime... then we can have a good old fashioned brawl.
lol
Seriously, is this how you discuss an issue? |
Yeah alright Captn I acknowledge I went a little overboard on the hyperbole. However, there are some people who jump in with no discussion etiquette whatsoever, and then you'll go silent and let them carry on, so where are your concerns for a proper discussion at that point? -so your credibility there is a bit thin, in other words if an issue hasn't been proven but simply hijacked, you've seemed content to let it rest at that. Now, to get back, I know people who have witnessed the kangaroo courts and can attest to the veracity of the main points of the book. Yeah, we now know that Kim asked Stalin and Mao for permission to cross the border, but it's also understandable that if you froze your ass off in Manchuria fighting a resistance against the occupation of your homeland, only to see the same players reinstated who then proceed to beat down your countrymen, you might not be content to just watch that go down from the sidelines. Everyone who lives in the ROK knows there still exists an extreme culture of suppression via conformity. The Kwangju uprisings of the 80's attests to the fact that ROK citizens harbored deep-seated resentment towards the military dictatorship that had been set up by the US which had been made possible by the brutal suppression of protests and demonstrations starting in 1945. It has been confirmed that Syngman Rhee had his political rivals murdered, including framing Cho Bong-am in the Supreme Court on trumped up charges of spying for and receiving funds from the North, leading to his state sanctioned execution. |
| Quote: |
legrande,
The problem is that you are using the brutality of the Rhee government to justify the invasion of June 25, 1950. |
Classic example of focusing on one detail, ignoring what I've already written three times- the events of 1945-1950 in ROK led to the outbreak of war. It's like whoever has the last post wins, so no matter if you ignore what's already been posted. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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@Captain Corea
| Quote: |
| This is what bothers me about Leftist theories... that there is only ONE way that things can be. |
You could just as easily insert "neo-con" in the above. The only problem with the neo-con view regarding the outbreak of the war and the details of the war itself is that they engage in so much non-mention/cover-up about minor facts like not sending Japanese adminstrative staff home, suppressing popular dissent and massacreing civilians that the sheer amount of evidence discounting their view is more than compelling.
| Quote: |
| You totally gloss over the points of wanting to reunify the peninsula under the rule of a megalomaniac. Or the fact that Kim himself was inserted by the Soviets. |
So one-sided, pretty rich coming from someone saying thtat one ought to see the "greater whole". Again, insert "Rhee" and "US" in the above. Once again, however, one the side you got Rhee, who went to uni in the states and put on his best face to ingratiate himself with US authorities, while the on the other you got Kim, who was moving about the wilds of Manchuria putting it all on the line engaging the Japanese in gueriila warfare. They both wanted to get rid of the Japanese occupation. One man planned his campaign from a residence in the states, kissed a lot of ass to get noticed and promised concessions. Another woke up every morning in a cave or some hovel often in sub-zero conditions willing to give his life for his country.
| Quote: |
| If the foundation is built on a faulty assumption/logic/fact, then the outcome is flawed. |
Exactly, so instead of continuing your futile exercise in commentary so faulty it makes swiss cheese look like granite, how about bringing anything substantial to the table?- As a starter, can you refute the fact that the actions and attitude of the US military gov't did not incite ROK citizens to demonstrate and protest? |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| "refute the fact that the actions and attitude of the US military gov't incited ROK citizens..." |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="legrande"]
| catman wrote: |
| legrande wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
Well now... that certainly was a rebuttal. I'm hash that would be served to stray dogs.... because... I've read his book and found it to be a lot of rubbish AND know that points in it have been proven to be false.
Tell ya what, you bring him to the school yard fight and I'll bring Optimus Prime... then we can have a good old fashioned brawl.
lol
Seriously, is this how you discuss an issue? |
Yeah alright Captn I acknowledge I went a little overboard on the hyperbole. However, there are some people who jump in with no discussion etiquette whatsoever, and then you'll go silent and let them carry on, so where are your concerns for a proper discussion at that point? -so your credibility there is a bit thin, in other words if an issue hasn't been proven but simply hijacked, you've seemed content to let it rest at that. Now, to get back, I know people who have witnessed the kangaroo courts and can attest to the veracity of the main points of the book. Yeah, we now know that Kim asked Stalin and Mao for permission to cross the border, but it's also understandable that if you froze your ass off in Manchuria fighting a resistance against the occupation of your homeland, only to see the same players reinstated who then proceed to beat down your countrymen, you might not be content to just watch that go down from the sidelines. Everyone who lives in the ROK knows there still exists an extreme culture of suppression via conformity. The Kwangju uprisings of the 80's attests to the fact that ROK citizens harbored deep-seated resentment towards the military dictatorship that had been set up by the US which had been made possible by the brutal suppression of protests and demonstrations starting in 1945. It has been confirmed that Syngman Rhee had his political rivals murdered, including framing Cho Bong-am in the Supreme Court on trumped up charges of spying for and receiving funds from the North, leading to his state sanctioned execution. |
| Quote: |
legrande,
The problem is that you are using the brutality of the Rhee government to justify the invasion of June 25, 1950. |
Classic example of focusing on one detail, ignoring what I've already written three times- the events of 1945-1950 in ROK led to the outbreak of war. It's like whoever has the last post wins, so no matter if you ignore what's already been posted. |
"The events of 1945-1950 in ROK led to the outbreak of the war."
Yes, and you now have to justify that statement.
The fact Rhee government was authoritarian is not the question here. The question is why did the North invade the South? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
| Once again, however, one the side you got Rhee, who went to uni in the states and put on his best face to ingratiate himself with US authorities, while the on the other you got Kim, who was moving about the wilds of Manchuria putting it all on the line engaging the Japanese in gueriila warfare. They both wanted to get rid of the Japanese occupation. One man planned his campaign from a residence in the states, kissed a lot of ass to get noticed and promised concessions. Another woke up every morning in a cave or some hovel often in sub-zero conditions willing to give his life for his country. |
This is screenplay material all the way. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
| the events of 1945-1950 in ROK led to the outbreak of war. |
Um... and the events of 1945-1950 in the DPRK (or the USSR and China) had nothing to do with it, right?
THAT'S my beef with your theory... and yes, it is a theory. You're confusing yourself with this type of statement.
| legrande wrote: |
| "refute the fact that the actions and attitude of the US military gov't incited ROK citizens..." |
You are proposing something... you. Not me. The onus is on you to prove it. You intermingle a few facts, and then take a leap to a conclusion that they may or may not actually arrive at.
You, need to do more.
Do you see how this works?
Someone proposes a theory of how something works, and then they show evidence backing it up.
Is this pattern really that strange to you?
I could easily say the
A) The US gov needed a success story for the population
B) They wanted to beat the Soviets
so....
C) They faked the moon landing!!?!?!?!?
There's a jump there. And if you don't see it, you're in trouble. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| legrande wrote: |
| the events of 1945-1950 in ROK led to the outbreak of war. |
Um... and the events of 1945-1950 in the DPRK (or the USSR and China) had nothing to do with it, right?
THAT'S my beef with your theory... and yes, it is a theory. You're confusing yourself with this type of statement.
| legrande wrote: |
| "refute the fact that the actions and attitude of the US military gov't incited ROK citizens..." |
You are proposing something... you. Not me. The onus is on you to prove it. You intermingle a few facts, and then take a leap to a conclusion that they may or may not actually arrive at.
You, need to do more.
Do you see how this works?
Someone proposes a theory of how something works, and then they show evidence backing it up.
Is this pattern really that strange to you?
I could easily say the
A) The US gov needed a success story for the population
B) They wanted to beat the Soviets
so....
C) They faked the moon landing!!?!?!?!?
There's a jump there. And if you don't see it, you're in trouble. |
| Quote: |
| Um... and the events of 1945-1950 in the DPRK (or the USSR and China) had nothing to do with it, right? |
In the north the Soviets told the Japanese and their collaborators to pack up and git, while in the south the US kept Japanese staff on, and reinstated pro-Jpn collaborators. This is a fact. Many ROK citizens reacted in anger. Fact. What do you got, except more empty rhetoric? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
In the north the Soviets told the Japanese and their collaborators to pack up and git, while in the south the US kept Japanese staff on, and reinstated pro-Jpn collaborators. This is a fact. Many ROK citizens reacted in anger. Fact. What do you got, except more empty rhetoric? |
Even if true, this does not equal the cause of the Korean War. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| legrande wrote: |
In the north the Soviets told the Japanese and their collaborators to pack up and git, while in the south the US kept Japanese staff on, and reinstated pro-Jpn collaborators. This is a fact. Many ROK citizens reacted in anger. Fact. What do you got, except more empty rhetoric? |
Even if true, this does not equal the cause of the Korean War. |
Protests and demonstrations in every province 1945-1950. Fact. Protests and demonstrations forcibly put down by US military, pro-Jpn collaborators, and colonial era Japanese kept on board by the US military gov't, leading to a deep broadening of resentment, as many ROK citizens were jailed, tortured, et. al- Fact. As a result, more intensive conflicts break out...for you not to admit that these events played a significant role (obviously not the single cause, but a major driving force) in causing the outbreak of war says heaps.
What's worse, if you really have read the book properly as you claim, you know that it's all well documented, yet you pretend that it may not be true.
You still haven't said anything to substantiate your claim that these events weren't a basic focus of attention for all involved parties, and that concern for the issues surrounding these events didn't cause war to break out on the peninsula. |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| So, because the US backed a right winger, the left wing North was forced to invade? By whom? The ghost of Leon Trotsky? |
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