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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: Grammar Q |
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This is an answer from a test.
The correct answer was meant to be: I found that the book is boring.
A student wrote: I found the book is boring.
I guess, because I find neither to be natural, I am struggling a bit with this one.
I would say the second is acceptable, if unnatural (though I welcome someone telling me if I am wrong if you can tell me why). I tried researching transitive verbs, clauses, etc., and I can't find a good explanation. I am not sure, though, which is why I would like others to weigh in on this one.
Cheers. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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What's unnatural about it? "that" is totally optional. If anything the first one is slightly less natural.
edit: Just browsed. "that" is functioning as an optional relative pronoun. More commonly used in formal writing.
http://www2.gsu.edu/~eslhpb/grammar/lecture_13/that.html
Hope that is what you're looking for. |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer, for me, there both unnatural because I think they're unnecessarily long, that's all. I would say, "I found the book boring." I thought that "that" is optional as well, and I am trying to put into words why, so I can explain it better. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm yes, not sure why even the correct answer uses "is." I thought that was your concern originally.
Anyway blah theexplanation is apparently full of the big grammar words that I never heard. Honestly I'd never look this stuff up if language learners didn't ask!
http://www.englishforums.com/English/RelativePronouns/nlvjb/post.htm
Third post sounds like it clarifies the difference between optional and obligatory "that." Because if you take away "is" in the examples, "that" cannot be used at all. What an annoying word lol |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
Hmm yes, not sure why even the correct answer uses "is." I thought that was your concern originally.
Anyway blah theexplanation is apparently full of the big grammar words that I never heard. Honestly I'd never look this stuff up if language learners didn't ask!
http://www.englishforums.com/English/RelativePronouns/nlvjb/post.htm
Third post sounds like it clarifies the difference between optional and obligatory "that." Because if you take away "is" in the examples, "that" cannot be used at all. What an annoying word lol |
I found that the book is boring.
This is a complex sentence composed of an independent clause and a dependent clause.
I found... (I - subject) (found - transitive verb requiring an object.)
The object in this case is a noun clause.
...that the book is boring...is a dependent noun clause.
'that' is operating as a subordinator (not a relative pronoun) connecting the two clauses.
...the book is boring. ( the book - subject) (is - verb.)
If you remove 'is'...then it is no longer a clause...clauses require both a subject and a verb.
I found that book boring. - Is a simple sentence.
'that' is operating as a demonstrative determiner...not a subordinator.
By the way...both the student answer and the test answer are correct.
In noun clauses....that...as a subordinator...is optional.
Hope this is helpful.  |
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MattAwesome
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
Hmm yes, not sure why even the correct answer uses "is." I thought that was your concern originally.
Anyway blah theexplanation is apparently full of the big grammar words that I never heard. Honestly I'd never look this stuff up if language learners didn't ask!
http://www.englishforums.com/English/RelativePronouns/nlvjb/post.htm
Third post sounds like it clarifies the difference between optional and obligatory "that." Because if you take away "is" in the examples, "that" cannot be used at all. What an annoying word lol |
I found that the book is boring.
This is a complex sentence composed of an independent clause and a dependent clause.
I found... (I - subject) (found - transitive verb requiring an object.)
The object in this case is a noun clause.
...that the book is boring...is a dependent noun clause.
'that' is operating as a subordinator (not a relative pronoun) connecting the two clauses.
...the book is boring. ( the book - subject) (is - verb.)
If you remove 'is'...then it is no longer a clause...clauses require both a subject and a verb.
I found that book boring. - Is a simple sentence.
'that' is operating as a demonstrative determiner...not a subordinator.
By the way...both the student answer and the test answer are correct.
In noun clauses....that...as a subordinator...is optional.
Hope this is helpful. |
well played, sir |
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