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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Location: wherever
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:20 pm Post subject: Grammar rules: Because everyone says it |
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So, another thread got me thinking.....
First off, if anyone reads this, this is not meant as a dig or an insult toward anyone, just something I have been thinking about.
I have noticed that a lot of people use the idea that if "a lot/most/everyone is doing it, then it must be correct" attitude towards grammar. I find this frustrating, but I'm picky about grammar. I'd like to find out what other people think about this. The example from the other thread was using "less" with countable nouns. Would you say this is now correct because a lot of people are saying this?
In the area of my country that I lived in for most of middle school and high school, people had taken to using "is" in sentences where "are" is correct. A poor example of this (but all I can think of) is "What is you doing?" or something equally grammatically egregious. It was not something I heard in other parts of the country, and it seems to have faded away, a slang fad. One that was really hammered into me by my father was "I'm well" vs. I'm good." Obviously, the latter is quite common.
So, do you think we should throw the rules out just because some people don't want to follow them? Does this make them lazy? Does this make me a grammar tyrant? Our language is changing so quickly, are we required to adapt? At what point do we concede that the rule has changed? Why bother with rules at all if we are?
Last edited by mmstyle on Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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The mutability of English is its most redeeming quality. A lot of English grammar rules are so riddled with exceptions that it's a stretch to call them "rules" anyway.
That said, the day the spelling of "definitely" is changed to include an "a" is the day I climb the nearest clock tower with a high-powered rifle.
I'm all for changes that benefit the comprehensibility and expressiveness of the language, and very much against those that are a direct result of random stupidity or laziness. |
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Gimbap Lover
Joined: 06 Mar 2011
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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"Because everyone is says it"? Do you even KNOW any grammar rules? Sheesh! |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Location: wherever
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Gimbap Lover wrote: |
"Because everyone is says it"? Do you even KNOW any grammar rules? Sheesh! |
Yep, even grammar tyrants make mistakes. No sense of humor? Or an opinion? |
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nero
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry to say, but most of the things that drive me insane are perpetuated by North Americans.
'You done good!' (Heard in an observation lesson).
'I don't got it! (yelled at another teacher).
Also the strange case of the missing 'have.'
'I seen a big waterfall.'
No, you saw a big waterfall, or you have seen a big waterfall.
It's not rocket science. In saying all this, I know I make mistakes too.
Just don't get me started on there, their, they're... |
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Gimbap Lover
Joined: 06 Mar 2011
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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mmstyle wrote: |
Gimbap Lover wrote: |
"Because everyone is says it"? Do you even KNOW any grammar rules? Sheesh! |
Yep, even grammar tyrants make mistakes. No sense of humor? Or an opinion? |
I know it was a simple mistake. I just thought it was funny that he would go on a tirade about it with an incorrect topic heading. |
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UknowsI

Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar rules: Because everyone says it |
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mmstyle wrote: |
I have noticed that a lot of people use the idea that if "a lot/most/everyone is doing it, then it must be correct" attitude towards grammar. |
My teacher once told me "there is no such thing as incorrect spoken language". At the time it sounded ridiculous, but I have started to see the wisdom it is as I've grown older. I come from a country with hundreds of regional dialects, some with less than 1000 speakers, but that doesn't make them wrong. It is much easier to justify why these regional dialects doesn't follow any conventional grammar without being wrong because this is how they have been speaking for generations. When it comes to new speech patterns it's easier to say that it's wrong because it's different from the current way of speaking, but in my mind neither is really wrong.
However, how you speak does affect communication and how people perceive you. Personally I would prefer to speak with a more traditional dialect which follows most of the written grammar because it's good for communication and it is something other people consider a good quality. Therefore a traditional or conservative dialect is usually what students (or their parents) want to learn when they start studying English. That's why we were taught "Oxford English" at school and any teacher who was teaching "liberal English" would probably earn a meeting with the principal.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for teachers to be required to speak traditional English, but at the same time I would not criticise anyone for speaking differently; unless they are my children.
When it comes to written rules they are often just a approximation of the standard dialect. The spoken language is always changing and when the spoken language gets too far away from the written language they change the rules. For everyone to use a common written language is convenient for obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to speak as they write. Some languages has divided the written language into different styles to make it closer to the spoken language (American English/British English, New Norwegian/Standard Norwegian, different kinds of German?), but this can often be a bad trend because the languages may drift further and further apart and make communication more difficult. Changing the spelling and grammar rules are absolutely necessary if you want a phonetic writing system which resembles the spoken language. However, none of this justifies not keeping up to date with the current spelling and grammar rules and write correctly.
Last edited by UknowsI on Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:28 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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tiger fancini

Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Location: Testicles for Eyes
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Underwaterbob wrote: |
That said, the day the spelling of "definitely" is changed to include an "a" is the day I climb the nearest clock tower with a high-powered rifle.
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If the spelling of 'ridiculous' is ever changed to include a 'e' I'll be doing the same thing. |
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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar rules: Because everyone says it |
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UknowsI wrote: |
mmstyle wrote: |
I have noticed that a lot of people use the idea that if "a lot/most/everyone is doing it, then it must be correct" attitude towards grammar. |
My teacher once told me "there is no such thing as incorrect spoken language". At the time it sounded ridiculous, but I have started to see the wisdom it is as I've grown older. I come from a country with hundreds of regional dialects, some with less than 1000 speakers, but that doesn't make them wrong. It is much easier to justify why these regional dialects doesn't follow any conventional grammar without being wrong because this is how they have been speaking for generations. When it comes to new speech patterns it's easier to say that it's wrong because it's different from the current way of speaking, but in my mind neither is really wrong.
However, how you speak does affect communication and how people perceive you. Personally I would prefer to speak with a more traditional dialect which follows most of the written grammar because it's good for communication and it is something other people often consider a good quality. Therefore a traditional or conservative dialect is usually what students (or their parents) want to learn when they start studying English. That's why we were thought "Oxford English" at school and any teacher who was teaching "liberal English" would probably earn a meeting with the principal.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for teachers to be required to speak traditional English, but at the same time I would not criticise anyone for speaking differently; unless they are my children |
Taught. Interestingly enough, either dave's or firefox considers "criticise" a spelling error. Poor limeys |
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Cedar
Joined: 11 Mar 2003 Location: In front of my computer, again.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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May I add to the list of most annoying grammatically screwed up things that get said too often:
"My bad"
Whenever someone says that to me, well, I point out another "bad" immediately. I cannot let that one slide. |
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Gimbap Lover
Joined: 06 Mar 2011
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone other than Oregonians use the term "spendy" for something being expensive.
Along with "My bad", how about when someone agrees and they say "True that (dat)"? |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Cedar wrote: |
May I add to the list of most annoying grammatically screwed up things that get said too often:
"My bad"
Whenever someone says that to me, well, I point out another "bad" immediately. I cannot let that one slide. |
That isn't a mistake. That is using language poetically. It expresses an idea with perfect clarity.
I was taught there is a difference between rule of English and English teacher rules. The former are expressions of the underlying structure of a living language as people use it. The latter are attempts by people to impose pointless rules on the users of a language.
Don't be so uptight. Why should people having fun with the language belongs to them bother you? Life's hard enough. |
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TECO

Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gimbap Lover wrote: |
"Because everyone is says it"? Do you even KNOW any grammar rules? Sheesh! |
Hey, if you can believe this, I was at a conference a few years ago and world class linguists like Ellis and Krashen were having a laugh about how they still confuse their, there and they're and have made mistakes in personal correspondence like e-mails, etc.
English is a screwy language with a lot of weird, if you want to call them that, "rules". I can understand why our students have such a tough time with it. |
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machinoman
Joined: 12 Feb 2010
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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my favorite is when people misuse 'literally'. i was watching access hollywood once. they were talking about about a movie premiere where sarah michelle geller apparently "literally slayed on the red carpet." needless to say, i was shocked. |
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McGenghis
Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Location: Gangneung
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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The prescription vs. description debate has been raging since before the days of Bishop Lowth.
I'm of the opinion that after learning grammar rules you graduate to some kind of final stage of linguistic enlightenment that allows you to bend said rules at your whim. Then you become an ubermensch of language like James Joyce or Tom Robbins and change everything. |
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