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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| the resolution rammed through the UN Security Council |
Which, of course, the Russians or Chinese could have easily blocked with a single 'no' vote. Funny kind of 'ram' when it can be stopped so easily. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, Libya Leader's Son, Killed By NATO Airstrike
TRIPOLI, April 30 (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi survived a NATO airstrike on Saturday night that killed his youngest son Saif al-Arab and three of his grandchildren, a Libyan government spokesman said.
Mussa Ibrahim said Saif al-Arab was a civilian and a student who had studied in Germany. He was 29 years old.
Libyan officials took journalists to the house, which had been hit by at least three missiles. The roof had completely caved in in some areas, leaving strings of reinforcing steel hanging down among chunks of concrete.
A table football machine stood outside in the garden of the house, which was in a wealthy residential area of Tripoli.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/30/saif-al-arab-gaddafi-libya-killed_n_855920.html |
Strange reaction generally to this, celebrations in Benghazi but when asked people think it's another regime fabrication, which makes more sense (besides celebrating the death of three children is quite a bit more than unseemly). I'm inclined to think it is a fabrication also, he's got previous for it, and it is rather conveniently his least known son. Hmmm. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, Libya Leader's Son, Killed By NATO Airstrike
TRIPOLI, April 30 (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi survived a NATO airstrike on Saturday night that killed his youngest son Saif al-Arab and three of his grandchildren, a Libyan government spokesman said.
Mussa Ibrahim said Saif al-Arab was a civilian and a student who had studied in Germany. He was 29 years old.
Libyan officials took journalists to the house, which had been hit by at least three missiles. The roof had completely caved in in some areas, leaving strings of reinforcing steel hanging down among chunks of concrete.
A table football machine stood outside in the garden of the house, which was in a wealthy residential area of Tripoli.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/30/saif-al-arab-gaddafi-libya-killed_n_855920.html |
Strange reaction generally to this, celebrations in Benghazi but when asked people think it's another regime fabrication, which makes more sense (besides celebrating the death of three children is quite a bit more than unseemly). I'm inclined to think it is a fabrication also, he's got previous for it, and it is rather conveniently his least known son. Hmmm. |
More conspiracy theories...  |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| Butterfly wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, Libya Leader's Son, Killed By NATO Airstrike
TRIPOLI, April 30 (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi survived a NATO airstrike on Saturday night that killed his youngest son Saif al-Arab and three of his grandchildren, a Libyan government spokesman said.
Mussa Ibrahim said Saif al-Arab was a civilian and a student who had studied in Germany. He was 29 years old.
Libyan officials took journalists to the house, which had been hit by at least three missiles. The roof had completely caved in in some areas, leaving strings of reinforcing steel hanging down among chunks of concrete.
A table football machine stood outside in the garden of the house, which was in a wealthy residential area of Tripoli.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/30/saif-al-arab-gaddafi-libya-killed_n_855920.html |
Strange reaction generally to this, celebrations in Benghazi but when asked people think it's another regime fabrication, which makes more sense (besides celebrating the death of three children is quite a bit more than unseemly). I'm inclined to think it is a fabrication also, he's got previous for it, and it is rather conveniently his least known son. Hmmm. |
More conspiracy theories... |
 that, my friend, is a little rich coming from you
Scepticism Surround 'Gaddafi Son's Death'
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/05/20115110482047680.html
Anyhow, I'm not saying it is true or it isn't, Ghaddafi does have previous for this, that's all: http://www.aim.org/aim-column/nbc%E2%80%99s-mitchell-regurgitates-gaddafi-lies/
| Quote: |
| Former USA Today reporter Barbara Slavin, who was in Libya at the time, set the record straight. �His adopted daughter was not killed,� she told me. �An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi.� |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| I guess the "special relationship" is over then? |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| It seems it may well be true, as Ghaddaffi's people have launch fresh attacks all over the country, Zintan, towns near Ajdabia (which resulted in a UN air strike), Tunisian border area, presumably Misurata, as well as thugs attacking Italian, UK and US embassies in Tripoli. The war has gone into overdrive. It's getting close to crunch time. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| Butterfly wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, Libya Leader's Son, Killed By NATO Airstrike
TRIPOLI, April 30 (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi survived a NATO airstrike on Saturday night that killed his youngest son Saif al-Arab and three of his grandchildren, a Libyan government spokesman said.
Mussa Ibrahim said Saif al-Arab was a civilian and a student who had studied in Germany. He was 29 years old.
Libyan officials took journalists to the house, which had been hit by at least three missiles. The roof had completely caved in in some areas, leaving strings of reinforcing steel hanging down among chunks of concrete.
A table football machine stood outside in the garden of the house, which was in a wealthy residential area of Tripoli.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/30/saif-al-arab-gaddafi-libya-killed_n_855920.html |
Strange reaction generally to this, celebrations in Benghazi but when asked people think it's another regime fabrication, which makes more sense (besides celebrating the death of three children is quite a bit more than unseemly). I'm inclined to think it is a fabrication also, he's got previous for it, and it is rather conveniently his least known son. Hmmm. |
More conspiracy theories... |
that, my friend, is a little rich coming from you |
So, how does it feel?
Anyway, I guess this too is just another part of your conspiracy:
Kill the retarded kids!
Libya disabled children school hit in NATO strike
| Quote: |
| TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Shattered glass litters the carpet at the Libyan Down's Syndrome Society, and dust covers pictures of grinning children that adorn the hallway, thrown into darkness by a NATO strike early on Saturday. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| Butterfly wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| Butterfly wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, Libya Leader's Son, Killed By NATO Airstrike
TRIPOLI, April 30 (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi survived a NATO airstrike on Saturday night that killed his youngest son Saif al-Arab and three of his grandchildren, a Libyan government spokesman said.
Mussa Ibrahim said Saif al-Arab was a civilian and a student who had studied in Germany. He was 29 years old.
Libyan officials took journalists to the house, which had been hit by at least three missiles. The roof had completely caved in in some areas, leaving strings of reinforcing steel hanging down among chunks of concrete.
A table football machine stood outside in the garden of the house, which was in a wealthy residential area of Tripoli.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/30/saif-al-arab-gaddafi-libya-killed_n_855920.html |
Strange reaction generally to this, celebrations in Benghazi but when asked people think it's another regime fabrication, which makes more sense (besides celebrating the death of three children is quite a bit more than unseemly). I'm inclined to think it is a fabrication also, he's got previous for it, and it is rather conveniently his least known son. Hmmm. |
More conspiracy theories... |
that, my friend, is a little rich coming from you |
So, how does it feel?
Anyway, I guess this too is just another part of your conspiracy:
Kill the retarded kids!
Libya disabled children school hit in NATO strike
| Quote: |
| TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Shattered glass litters the carpet at the Libyan Down's Syndrome Society, and dust covers pictures of grinning children that adorn the hallway, thrown into darkness by a NATO strike early on Saturday. |
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Nope. From your own link:
| Quote: |
| There were no children at the school when the missiles hit early on Saturday morning |
| Quote: |
| The Libyan government has repeatedly said that NATO airstrikes have hurt and killed civilians but has not responded to requests by journalists to visit the hospitals, making it tough to verify casualty figures. |
Yes, and might I ask if you, sincerely, will be disappointed if the Ghaddaffi regime falls? Are you secretly gunning for the man Space Bar? |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
Anyway, I guess this too is just another part of your conspiracy:
Kill the retarded kids!
Libya disabled children school hit in NATO strike
| Quote: |
| TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Shattered glass litters the carpet at the Libyan Down's Syndrome Society, and dust covers pictures of grinning children that adorn the hallway, thrown into darkness by a NATO strike early on Saturday. |
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Nope. From your own link:
| Quote: |
| There were no children at the school when the missiles hit early on Saturday morning |
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Are they heartbroken they missed?
| Butterfly wrote: |
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| The Libyan government has repeatedly said that NATO airstrikes have hurt and killed civilians but has not responded to requests by journalists to visit the hospitals, making it tough to verify casualty figures. |
Yes, and might I ask if you, sincerely, will be disappointed if the Ghaddaffi regime falls? Are you secretly gunning for the man Space Bar? |
Who cares? Maybe you do because you have lived there, but my country has no business going over there and spending my tax dollars on an issue that has nothing to do with Americans in general. And did I mention we are broke?
I'm an expat. I travel the world. I don't enjoy being hated in large parts of the world. This 'war' is only going to grow those numbers.
Damn warmongers. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| Who cares? Maybe you do because you have lived there, but my country has no business going over there and spending my tax dollars on an issue that has nothing to do with Americans in general. |
I admit I am subjective.
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| And did I mention we are broke? |
Kuros already made mention of the cost of the US contribution to the UN sanctioned NATO operation.
Presumably your 'tax dollars' are pretty limited then, correct me if I am wrong.
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| I travel the world. I don't enjoy being hated in large parts of the world. |
Congratulations then, on this: http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/libyan-opposition-banner.jpg
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This 'war' is only going to grow those numbers.
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of what?
Yeah, those dumbass rebels with their stoopid ideas of democracy.
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| Are they heartbroken they missed? |
Do you genuinely think, genuinely, that the UN pilots are disappointed they didn't kill a bunch of down syndrome children? Do you really think that or are you being silly? |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: |
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More on Saif-Al Arab:
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| Gaddafi's son Saif al-Arab was well known to German police |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/01/gaddafi-son-saif-al-arab?CMP=twt_fd
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| Earlier this year, German prosecutors dropped an investigation into allegations of arms smuggling against him. Der Spiegel reported that the police believed they had solid evidence that Saif (not to be confused with his more prominent older brother Saif al-Islam) had organised the transport of a bag containing an assault rifle, a revolver and ammunition from Munich to Paris in 2007. |
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This was not the first time he was reported hit by a western air strike. In 1986, the four year-old Saif was said to have been injured by the US bombing of another of his father's residences. On that occasion the attack was ordered by Ronald Reagan in retaliation for the suspected Libyan role in the bombing of a Berlin discotheque.
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some mothers do 'ave 'em. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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At first I was skeptical of the skeptics. No one is comfortable with inconvenient facts and they have a reason to reject the reports.
Then I read more and more questions about the incident, like: Why haven't the names and ages of the kids been released? Why didn't the journalists see much blood at the site? Why doesn't the house look like a house and why does it have a bunker underneath? Did Press TV make a mistake when they reported Saif Al-Arab joined the rebels in February and whether he did or not, where has he been for the last two months? Is Qaddafi capable of such deep cynicism that he would fake the death of a son and 3 grandchildren?
I've said it before: any smart high school sophomore can come up with a list of questions that are hard to answer in a situation like this. It doesn't mean there aren't answers. It doesn't even mean the questions are meaningful. It just means that life is messy and not often clear cut. It is not all that uncommon for some people to tell lies to their own benefit. Anything can be turned into a conspiracy theory with a little bit of motivation and effort.
I'm reminded of King Arthur and King Sebastian and that dead German king sleeping under the mountain. All sorts of rumors get started in a war. The objective truth doesn't always matter as much as what people believe is true.
Is Saif Al-Arab dead? I have no idea. Somebody probably died in that building. Did kids die? Maybe. They could have been human shields. No matter, they were someone's grandchildren and Qaddafi bears the responsibility for their deaths because he started this mess. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever. Collateral damage.
One death is a tragedy, to be exploited by a ruthless dictator. On February 22, the International Coalition Against War Criminals gave an estimate that 519 people had died, 3,980 were wounded and over 1,500 were missing. That's just a statistic.
Its just fodder for the useful idiots. How are you doing today, Space Bar?  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
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France Is Dropping Concrete Chunks on Libya
By Adam Martin Apr 29, 2011
French planes have started dropping bomb-shaped chunks of concrete instead of actual bombs on Muammar Qadaffi's tanks in Libya. The idea is that a 600-pound concrete training bomb, dropped from thousands of feet up, can crush a tank without creating a huge explosion that kills a lot of people.
The move was rumored early on to be the result of a munitions shortage within NATO, but that's been debunked. Agence France-Presse reported on Thursday that "[m]ilitary spokesman Thierry Burkhard denied rumours the use of the 300-kilo (660-pound) training devices was prompted by a shortage of real bombs. He said the first such strike crushed an armoured vehicle on Tuesday."
It's worth pointing out that the story hasn't gotten much traction in the U.S. press. While foreign agencies from the Middle East's Zawya to the Philippines' ABS-CBN to Chinese state agency Xinhua have run the story, only blogs appear to be picking it up domestically. Maybe the idea of essentially throwing rocks isn't that impressive. |
This can hardly please the MIC. |
Caniff didn't post the important detail concerning targeting.
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| Keep in mind that the bombs, while concrete, are still guided by modern technology like GPS or lasers onto their targets since a near miss with a concrete bomb won�t get you much. |
Pictures of the bombs in the link.
But as much as the French will try to spin this as being "responsible," its another example of the yawning gap between American and European military capabilities. The Americans have the $40,000 (ZOMG THIS WAR IS SO EXPENSIVE!) GBU-39B Small Diameter Bomb System.
Still, the French are resourceful. |
If they are trying to minimise deaths when neutralising tanks that is wonderful. Many of those poor lads fighting for Gadaffi have no choice. Last week I heard the terrible news that a young teen that I personally knew had been killed. He had been sent to fight for Gadaffi. I hadn't even realised he was now 17, until I learnt of his death. I was still thinking of him as a young school boy.  His family are terribly distraught - it's their second death. I know of other men who are fighting for Gadaffi. They are doing it out of fear for what will happen to their own families and children if they do not. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Whatever. Collateral damage.
One death is a tragedy, to be exploited by a ruthless dictator. On February 22, the International Coalition Against War Criminals gave an estimate that 519 people had died, 3,980 were wounded and over 1,500 were missing. That's just a statistic.
Its just fodder for the useful idiots. How are you doing today, Space Bar? |
Collateral damage to what end. I'm very uncomfortable with NATO bombing in residential areas. What does it acheive? I also know a family who live in an area that was hit by Nato a couple of weeks ago. They are terrified. But there is nowhere for them to go. They would have gone in the early days if they had had the means, but they're just ordinary people, trapped like rats. Men from that family are being forced to fight.
Are they just bombing about until they finally hit Gadaffi? I'd like him dead as much as anyone, but how many dead civillians can we justify? And will his death end this? Or do we then have to bomb all about the place, maiming and killing more innocents in the process, in the hope of knocking out all his kids too? |
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