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yoja
Joined: 30 May 2008
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 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| yoja wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Some people should learn to differentiate between a CASUAL online discussion board and a more FORMAL educational setting when judging a persons' [SIC] grammar and spelling. |
Yes, and some people should just take a little more time and effort to double-check their grammar and spelling and avoid mistakes before posting their atrocities online for the whole world to see, and then getting upset when someone decides to correct.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
Well some people have a compelling urge to correct whatever mistakes they see when it comes to English on here. Some have a compelling urge to bash people who make spelling or grammar mistakes here.
Now personally, I could not care less if a person who writes here makes mistakes. I would certainly not then assume they cannot write well in real life or as a part of their teaching job.
To me the same logic applies for casual emails or chat. It is not a formal communication setting so some people do not double check before hitting submit or send. Not a big deal.
A lot of my work is about writing. This takes the form of formal reports, internal policy, offers to clients, training workshop plans and so on.
Do you actually think that how I write here is any indication of how I write in a professional setting?
I personally never double check my posts here, I truly do not care if some mistakes creep in or if a particular post of mine has more errors or holes in it that a piece of swiss cheese. To me this is a casual online discussion forum. when I write for work, I triple check everything because the setting demands it. This is a lot like how you speak in a formal presentation vs how you speak in a casual setting around a pint of beer.
To each his own however..... |
Yes, Patrick, all valid points. However, please keep in mind that you didn't start out your post with this:
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| "There has been a handful of members here who said that my grammar sucks...I don't think my grammar sucks. I think I use a rather different way of expressing things that everybody could comprehend." |
Hate to say it, but this guy is asking for trouble. There's a reason that I don't start my posts with something like, "I don't know why everyone is saying I'm fat! Just because my mouth is permanently smeared with chocolate and fried chicken grease and the scale underneath me is saying it doesn't measure in metric tons doesn't mean anything!!!" and then cry troll when all the boys on Dave's come out to play. |
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litebear
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| yoja wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Some people should learn to differentiate between a CASUAL online discussion board and a more FORMAL educational setting when judging a persons' [SIC] grammar and spelling. |
Yes, and some people should just take a little more time and effort to double-check their grammar and spelling and avoid mistakes before posting their atrocities online for the whole world to see, and then getting upset when someone decides to correct.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
Well some people have a compelling urge to correct whatever mistakes they see when it comes to English on here. Some have a compelling urge to bash people who make spelling or grammar mistakes here.
Now personally, I could not care less if a person who writes here makes mistakes. I would certainly not then assume they cannot write well in real life or as a part of their teaching job.
To me the same logic applies for casual emails or chat. It is not a formal communication setting so some people do not double check before hitting submit or send. Not a big deal.
A lot of my work is about writing. This takes the form of formal reports, internal policy, offers to clients, training workshop plans and so on.
Do you actually think that how I write here is any indication of how I write in a professional setting?
I personally never double check my posts here, I truly do not care if some mistakes creep in or if a particular post of mine has more errors or holes in it that a piece of swiss cheese. To me this is a casual online discussion forum. when I write for work, I triple check everything because the setting demands it. This is a lot like how you speak in a formal presentation vs how you speak in a casual setting around a pint of beer.
To each his own however..... |
Patrick, come on man. Read a few of NHS's posts. The guy clearly isn't a native speaker. He's making out like people are hounding him about missing the odd apostrphe but in reality his posts are often incoherent to the point that he has to re-phrase and re-write questions multiple times to get his point across.
I hate grammar Nazi's as much as the next guy but grammar has nothing to do with this. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Nohope, no, you do not sound like a native speaker. Then again, no one says that you NEED to be a native speaker...but if you start correcting other folks, you are going to get those stones thrown back at your own crystal palace....
One example -- in the mono-lingual thread, you said:
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| My former VP and the principal kept insisting me to teach in English |
Now, I understood what you meant, but the whole "insist me" thing is a fairly common mistake I hear from non-native Korean speakers -- you can insist without an object, insist ON something, insist THAT something occur, and even insist TO someone THAT something occur. When I see "insist" in place of "command" or "order," I just chalk it up to choosing the wrong denotation when translating a Korean work into English.
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| My former VP and the principal kept {ordering} me to teach in English |
would be grammatically correct, though perhaps stronger in connotation than you wanted....
You aren't the worst by any means -- your English is WAY better than my Korean -- but you need to remember that just because people are able to understand you, doesn't mean that you are writing well.
Most of us could read this aloud with nary a pause....
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| Arocdnicg to rsceearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn�t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pcale. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit pobelrm. Tihs is buseace the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. |
...but that doesn't mean it is clear or well-written.... |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| litebear wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| yoja wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Some people should learn to differentiate between a CASUAL online discussion board and a more FORMAL educational setting when judging a persons' [SIC] grammar and spelling. |
Yes, and some people should just take a little more time and effort to double-check their grammar and spelling and avoid mistakes before posting their atrocities online for the whole world to see, and then getting upset when someone decides to correct.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
Well some people have a compelling urge to correct whatever mistakes they see when it comes to English on here. Some have a compelling urge to bash people who make spelling or grammar mistakes here.
Now personally, I could not care less if a person who writes here makes mistakes. I would certainly not then assume they cannot write well in real life or as a part of their teaching job.
To me the same logic applies for casual emails or chat. It is not a formal communication setting so some people do not double check before hitting submit or send. Not a big deal.
A lot of my work is about writing. This takes the form of formal reports, internal policy, offers to clients, training workshop plans and so on.
Do you actually think that how I write here is any indication of how I write in a professional setting?
I personally never double check my posts here, I truly do not care if some mistakes creep in or if a particular post of mine has more errors or holes in it that a piece of swiss cheese. To me this is a casual online discussion forum. when I write for work, I triple check everything because the setting demands it. This is a lot like how you speak in a formal presentation vs how you speak in a casual setting around a pint of beer.
To each his own however..... |
Patrick, come on man. Read a few of NHS's posts. The guy clearly isn't a native speaker. He's making out like people are hounding him about missing the odd apostrphe but in reality his posts are often incoherent to the point that he has to re-phrase and re-write questions multiple times to get his point across.
I hate grammar Nazi's as much as the next guy but grammar has nothing to do with this. |
It was an aweful post from a writing standpoint. |
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pikadoopoo
Joined: 19 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| My former VP and the principal kept {ordering} me to teach in English |
would be grammatically correct, though perhaps stronger in connotation than you wanted.... |
Perhaps "My former VP and the principal kept insisting that I teach in English" would be better?  I can relate to the OP because I'm Korean-American as well, but his style of writing seems really unnatural to me. I just got really self-conscious about my own writing now!
Edit: This part bothered me the most ---
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| I've thought English is my first language of my whole life. |
It sounds so... I dunno... Reminds me of a Korean to English translation. I would just write "I consider English to be my first language." |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Am I the worst example? |
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Technically, when you are using a forum you are writing down spoken English, which according to Cameron (2009) is a spoken disclosure and not a written form of English, and is completely different to written English.
However if you are actually trying to be grammatical, then you should read more books and less forums.
| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
There has been a handful of members here who said that my grammar sucks. One bombarded me with a borderline trollish insult today. I don't think my grammar sucks. I think I use a rather different way of expressing things that everybody could comprehend. They're not too different from the generic English speakers. I may born in Korea but I lived in the USA and Canada for 75% of my life. My first words were in English. I've thought English is my first language of my whole life. There were several times that I had to learn other languages and temporary ditch English.
Should I give up becoming a NET because of my poor grammar and a harsh decision made by few people about me? Or should I become an epic loser in the English-teaching scene?
This long-term insecurity from this peer pressure is unpleasant, I should say. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Am I the worst example? |
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| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
| There has been a handful of members here who said that my grammar sucks. |
Have not has.
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| One bombarded me with a borderline trollish insult today. |
A bombardment refers to multiple attacks, never just one.
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| I think I use a rather different way of expressing things that everybody could comprehend. |
Pfpfpfpfppfpfpf....
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| I may born in Korea but I lived in the USA and Canada for 75% of my life. |
May have been born...
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| I've thought English is my first language of my whole life. |
For, not of. For my whole life. And it stills sound a little unnatural.
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| There were several times that I had to learn other languages and temporary ditch English. |
I have had to learn...
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| Should I give up becoming a NET because of my poor grammar and a harsh decision made by few people about me? Or should I become an epic loser in the English-teaching scene? |
Nope. Just make sure you understand everything that is in the particular lessons you are teaching that day inside out to make sure you don't make basic errors like in your posts here. One of the best teachers I've ever had is a native Korean speaker who I'm sure isn't perfect in the language he's teaching. Not that I can actually tell, I just have to assume. He is an excellent teacher, but you know he works really hard at it. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| pikadoopoo wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| My former VP and the principal kept {ordering} me to teach in English |
would be grammatically correct, though perhaps stronger in connotation than you wanted.... |
Perhaps "My former VP and the principal kept insisting that I teach in English" would be better? |
Oh, absolutely, pikadoopoo! The point I was making was that a different word would take that particular sentence form, whereas the word he had used would require a rephrasing of the whole sentence -- it was a "if you want to say it that way, you need to use this word; if you want to use that word, you need to say it this way!"
I have a small list of common mistakes most likely caused by dictionaries -- for example, using "expect" when the person means "look forward to" (기대하다).
When I encounter them, my first suggestion for correction is to replace the word in question with a counterpart (from the list of definitions that the student used) that would work in the sentence. I make the suggestion first, tell the person the difference in connotation, then let the person decide whether to rephrase the sentence or keep the sentence with the alternate word...I have done it so often, I did it again here without thinking |
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Xylox
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Just ask yourself this question, "When I speak English, do native speakers understand wtf I'm saying?"
If the answer is yes, then you can teach Korean kids how to yell "HERRO!" at us in Family Mart. |
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runthegauntlet
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Location: the southlands.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Honest answer: you don't necessarily need perfect grammar to be an NET (depending on what level you're teaching), but if the above how you usually write, your written grammar is pretty bad. |
That's how I write. It's not that bad. |
Yeah, mate, it really is quite bad. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Am I the worst example? |
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[quote="Draz"]
| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
| There has been a handful of members here who said that my grammar sucks. |
Have not has.
Not necessarily, American usage: "a handful" is a singular noun.
If you're going to correct his writing, you'd better be sure to explain your corrections. |
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NohopeSeriously
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| pikadoopoo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've thought English is my first language of my whole life. |
It sounds so... I dunno... Reminds me of a Korean to English translation. I would just write "I consider English to be my first language." |
Trust me. I've heard this sentence structure among native speakers in Canada.
| yoja wrote: |
| Hate to say it, but this guy is asking for trouble. |
Welcome to my life. I don't want to teach English in the first place. ESL is my only job option as for now.
| iggyb wrote: |
Just don't go to a Korean high school.
I got my MA in teaching in a department in the US with several profs who were "anti-grammar". They drilled it into our heads that focusing overtly on grammar is a terrible way to teach literature and writing and other aspects of English language arts in secondary schools. The vast majority of us already agreed with them. Focusing on actually writing and reading will do wonders for improving grammar instead of a largely wasted time and effort in teaching grammar rules.
If you read around in TESOL books and journals, you'll also read about studies that have found a primary focus on grammar rules is an inefficient use of classroom time. Students learn the use of the language faster through other means, and by learning, I also mean they get better at making fewer mistakes.
Korean secondary teachers do not buy this at all. Many elementary teachers don't.
But high school, where they are obsessed with the Korean SAT, is where you'd get into trouble making frequent grammar mistakes. The Korean teachers and many of the students would decide you didn't know "real" English well enough or were a horrible teacher.
In elementary school, not so much. |
Everybody can understand my colloquial English perfectly, just like any Anglophone Canadian. Maybe my approach to writing (be it essay or forum posts) is different. I've tried to read books to make an attempt to improve my English writing. Consider I'm a visual learner, this wasn't as efficient as I've thought at first.
You can bash me if you want. I deserve it. I'm a horrible individual according to your collective TOESL standard. |
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NohopeSeriously
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| You aren't the worst by any means -- your English is WAY better than my Korean -- but you need to remember that just because people are able to understand you, doesn't mean that you are writing well. |
There's a reason why my native language is English. Why? My Korean speech/writing is worse than my English speech/writing.
Should I honestly say that I have a native language? No. Am I a freak who can't express ideas into words/writing properly? Perhaps so. Am I a failure? 80% positive. You know, this Catch-22 situation is tormenting a soul. Hate me all you want. |
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runthegauntlet
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Location: the southlands.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
There's a reason why my native language is English. Why? My Korean speech/writing is worse than my English speech/writing.
Should I honestly say that I have a native language? No. Am I a freak who can't express ideas into words/writing properly? Perhaps so. Am I a failure? 80% positive. You know, this Catch-22 situation is tormenting a soul. Hate me all you want. |
In all seriousness, it seems like you have some confidence/self-esteem issues that you haven't addressed and this whole 'grammar' thing is just a petty manifestation of that.
Perhaps seek some professional help or counseling? It'd be a lot better than attempting to throw yourself under the bus with one self-deprecating tirade after another. |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Am I the worst example? |
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| litebear wrote: |
| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
| I don't think my grammar sucks. |
I'm suprised you say that considering that you sent me a PM saying.
| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
| Sure, my English sucks. It's not gonna stop me from getting a teaching job. |
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Uncool. PMs are indeed supposed to be private. |
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