|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
HymanKaplan
Joined: 14 Jun 2011
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Julius:
How were you getting these invitations? How long have you been teaching? And what were the jobs like?
I did get one job offer. They wanted me to work 60 hours a week and take shared accommodations. I told them to stuff it. In the right circumstances I might take a job with 30 teaching hours--if it worked out so I was in the office for no more than 40. And I want private accommodations or a housing allowance. And after South Korea I want to teach adults or mostly adults.
There are plenty of jobs like that in Turkey, but they all seem to require a minimum of 1-3 years' experience.
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| HymanKaplan wrote: |
| I had a fantasy about living abroad most of my life but it was always Mexico or Turkey. Since I couldn't find a job in Turkey |
I was always getting sent job invitations for Turkey up to about 3 years ago. has the ESL market there crashed? |
Is that a culture you have an interest in, or were you just casting about for the next place that might have teaching opportunities? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
No, I really want to go to Turkey. It's become my promised land at this point. Initially I wanted to go there to see some of the historical sites, but then everybody who's been there tells me how nice the people are. And the food is good. After Korea well, I like the historical sites but everything else becomes more appealing the longer I'm here.
HK |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
michi gnome
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Location: Dokdo
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
"Life if what happens when you're making plans to do something else." Wish I knew who said it.
John Lennon, but I looked it up anyway and found this on the wikiquote website:
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." |
yes, but was it not Lennon who also said "I am the Eggman, I am the Walrus," and followed up that statement with "Coo-Coo ca-choo"
so who knows what the hell to think? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| And then you have Ferris Bueller's contribution, "Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
As I read the exchange I was thinking that maybe its healthy not to view Koreans with either dark glasses, or rosey ones either. In my own life I have run into some pretty arrogant and predatory individuals. I have also met people of Honor who have been tolerant, compassionate and wise. The challenge for me has usually been to withold judgement until the person before me has revealed themselves.
What I have also noticed is that urban areas seem to bring out the darker side of people. As much as I enjoy visiting Grant Park, the Field Museum or taking in a game at Wrigley Field, city-people have a very definite "edge" compared to folks in suburban and rural areas. I wonder if the Korean Nationalism alluded to is as prevalent in the areas of Korea away from the cosmopolitan centers. Thoughts? Comments?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
It's the other way around here. Seoul pushes out all the "losers" and fellows who can't make it.
I lived in both and the countryside contained the following:
Many more fights
Much more robbery and petty crime
Hell of a lot more rude language and rude behavior
More crazies
The more respectable, smarter, competitive a Korean is, the more likely they live in Seoul. All my friends who couldn't make it have left Seoul. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| minos wrote: |
| Seoul pushes out all the "losers" and fellows who can't make it.. |
Are you talking about esl teachers, or just koreans generally.?
| Quote: |
All my friends who couldn't make it have left Seoul |
I agree that recent E2 regulations have eliminated a lot of losers from the gene pool in the past 2 years.
But beyond that, it seems that anyone who is over 28 (!  ), not american, not white and blue-eyed, who has qualifications and experience, is getting a raw deal (if they even get hired in the first place).
Thats not what I call quality control. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Julius wrote: |
| minos wrote: |
| Seoul pushes out all the "losers" and fellows who can't make it.. |
Are you talking about esl teachers, or just koreans generally.?
| Quote: |
All my friends who couldn't make it have left Seoul |
I agree that recent E2 regulations have eliminated a lot of losers from the gene pool in the past 2 years.
But beyond that, it seems that anyone who is over 28 (! ), not american, not white and blue-eyed, who has qualifications and experience, is getting a raw deal (if they even get hired in the first place).
Thats not what I call quality control. |
Right you are but those hiring practices are endemic to many fields and are responses cultural, financial and sexual determinations, and not to professional standards.
In the States there is a distinct pattern of hiring young, female single-head-of-household as preferred to young male-single-head-of-household. In turn there is a preference of hiring someone with children over someone who has no children or someone who is married over a single person. During the 1970-s and 1980-s, as a single, White, male I had to deal with this, as well as what was called "Affirmative Action" (Hiring with racial considerations), a Recession each decade and my veteran status. As I write this it has become abundantly clear that I am banging into a very firm barrier that sees me as both overaged (60 yrs) and overqualified (MA w/ 20 yr exp).
In a Business-driven world (which is what Education is devolving into) a person who is "Young, Attractive, Verbal, Intelligent and Sensual/sexual" ----YAVIS- will consistently be selected over a person who lacks one or all of these qualities. Gawd knows there has been tons of research done on this and it always comes up the same way. From there it gets worse depending on the individual agency which is how, I suppose, so many of the faces I see accepted for placement in Korea are young, attractive co-eds with a BA and no teaching experience. Businesses want YAVIS people over non-YAVIS people and its just Life being Life. Do I have a lot to offer? Sure, but if the hiring person is looking for some eye-candy for their classroom, or thinks only young females should work with kids thats going to be the nature of the hiring. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ippy
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| michi gnome wrote: |
| Quote: |
"Life if what happens when you're making plans to do something else." Wish I knew who said it.
John Lennon, but I looked it up anyway and found this on the wikiquote website:
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." |
yes, but was it not Lennon who also said "I am the Eggman, I am the Walrus," and followed up that statement with "Coo-Coo ca-choo"
so who knows what the hell to think? |
he also said in glass onion, "the walrus was paul", and then in god said "i was the walrus, now im john."
The man needed to make his mind up! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Julius wrote: |
| minos wrote: |
| Seoul pushes out all the "losers" and fellows who can't make it.. |
Are you talking about esl teachers, or just koreans generally.?
| Quote: |
All my friends who couldn't make it have left Seoul |
I agree that recent E2 regulations have eliminated a lot of losers from the gene pool in the past 2 years.
But beyond that, it seems that anyone who is over 28 (! ), not american, not white and blue-eyed, who has qualifications and experience, is getting a raw deal (if they even get hired in the first place).
Thats not what I call quality control. |
Both Koreans and foreigners....but mostly Koreans.
All the best colleges? Seoul. Best companies? Seoul. Film and art industry? Seoul. etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kinbensha
Joined: 30 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Edit: Apparently this conversation doesn't continue through the whole 8 pages of comments, but my thoughts still stand.
Alright, I hate to judge you guys, but some of you are saying things with some really scary underlying racist tones.
What do you mean, "No one adopts Korean culture, do they?" You're not limited to the culture of the country you're born in. You don't have an obligation to "stay American" or anything like that. People immigrate to new countries and assimilate all the time. Why is moving to Korea any different?
When I lived in Japan, a lot of Caucasian American and Caucasian Canadians I knew dyed their hair black, cut it in Japanese styles, and bought Japanese clothes. I didn't physically assimilate, because I'm already mixed race Japanese/Caucasian, but we all spoke Japanese fluently, and we all took part in Japanese culture as if we were permanent residents (which, at the time, we were). If you plan on just being a tourist, then that's fine, but don't judge people who leave their old cultures and adopt new ones. If you live in a country for an extended amount of time, that's what you should do. Assimilation is important to fitting in in a new culture.
I don't understand how some of you could have lived in foreign countries for years and say things like that. I'm guessing a lot of teachers just hang out with other non-Koreans, but still... you're surrounded by another country's culture. It's weird to shut yourself off from it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kinbensha wrote: |
Edit: Apparently this conversation doesn't continue through the whole 8 pages of comments, but my thoughts still stand.
Alright, I hate to judge you guys, but some of you are saying things with some really scary underlying racist tones.
What do you mean, "No one adopts Korean culture, do they?" You're not limited to the culture of the country you're born in. You don't have an obligation to "stay American" or anything like that. People immigrate to new countries and assimilate all the time. Why is moving to Korea any different?
When I lived in Japan, a lot of Caucasian American and Caucasian Canadians I knew dyed their hair black, cut it in Japanese styles, and bought Japanese clothes. I didn't physically assimilate, because I'm already mixed race Japanese/Caucasian, but we all spoke Japanese fluently, and we all took part in Japanese culture as if we were permanent residents (which, at the time, we were). If you plan on just being a tourist, then that's fine, but don't judge people who leave their old cultures and adopt new ones. If you live in a country for an extended amount of time, that's what you should do. Assimilation is important to fitting in in a new culture.
I don't understand how some of you could have lived in foreign countries for years and say things like that. I'm guessing a lot of teachers just hang out with other non-Koreans, but still... you're surrounded by another country's culture. It's weird to shut yourself off from it. |
physical assimilation doesn't count for much. You could tell yourself you're "experimenting" or trying something new, etc etc etc.
It can be almost fun.
rejecting all basis for your entire education and Western cultural values which stress the importance and primacy of the individual for Korean neo Confucianism, aka Confucianism on steroids, which far outdoes other Asian societies influenced by Confucius is something different entirely.
I can easily be surrounded by such thinking, yet shut myself out from it entirely, only to be mindful of it in order not to needlessly offend anyone.
I shut myself off from it (while keeping it in back of my mind for local dealings) simply because intellectually speaking I've examined it, thought it through and consider it complete nonsense.
so saying "no one adopts Korean culture" isn't nearly as quasi racist as you may think.
unless you think dressing and talking like a 12 year old, getting a complete Hello Kitty collection and dancing to K pop is "adopting Korean culture". Unless you think eating kimchi and wearing a hanbok is adopting Korean culture..
it may be.. but only on the most superficial level. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I'm guessing a lot of teachers just hang out with other non-Koreans, but still... you're surrounded by another country's culture. It's weird to shut yourself off from it. |
I agree that's it's weird to 'shut yourself off' from a the culture of the country you're living in but I think it's even weirder to dye your hair black just because you happen to be living in Japan.
You may think that immigrants 'should' assimilate into another culture but it's fairly normal human behaviour not to. Go anywhere in the world where there are a lot of immigrants from the same culture and you'll see them living together in the same streets, opening their own shops, restaurants, churches etc..It's also totally typical human behaviour to hang out with people you have the most in common with. People feel more at ease with other people they can share the most cultural references with. This allows for more topics for conversation, enables people to exercise thier sense of humour with more sophistication and generally reduces the number of misunderstandings.
Read George Orwell's 'Burmese Days' where he says 'most people can be at ease in a foreign country only when they are disparaging the inhabitants.' It may not be a very attractive human trait but IMO he was spot on and you can easily see the truth in his observation by reading through the posts of these boards.
As I said it'd be strange not to dip your toe into the culture of your adopted country but very few of us choose the Laurence of Arabia route and go completely native |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote guy above: "I shut myself off from it (while keeping it in back of my mind for local dealings) simply because intellectually speaking I've examined it, thought it through and consider it complete nonsense."
It sure is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rainism wrote: |
physical assimilation doesn't count for much. You could tell yourself you're "experimenting" or trying something new, etc etc etc.
It can be almost fun.
rejecting all basis for your entire education and Western cultural values which stress the importance and primacy of the individual for Korean neo Confucianism, aka Confucianism on steroids, which far outdoes other Asian societies influenced by Confucius is something different entirely.
I can easily be surrounded by such thinking, yet shut myself out from it entirely, only to be mindful of it in order not to needlessly offend anyone.
I shut myself off from it (while keeping it in back of my mind for local dealings) simply because intellectually speaking I've examined it, thought it through and consider it complete nonsense.
so saying "no one adopts Korean culture" isn't nearly as quasi racist as you may think.
unless you think dressing and talking like a 12 year old, getting a complete Hello Kitty collection and dancing to K pop is "adopting Korean culture". Unless you think eating kimchi and wearing a hanbok is adopting Korean culture..
it may be.. but only on the most superficial level. |
There is also the other side to that POV as well.
Here in the States, the influx of immigrants from Central and South America has produced very strident calls for "protecting" American culture. There is great fear among Conservatives that the huge numbers of Latino-s and their families with taint the WASP culture irreparably. As a result one hears calls for immigrants to learning the language (English), to avoid celebrating holidays of their homelands, dress and conduct their affairs in the fashion of Anglos around them. Such practices as socilizing in groups in public locations in the evenings--- a fundamental social function-- is often viewed with suspicion, as it loud playing of Latino music.
Regarding Neo-Confucian thought, I suppose the case can be made for much of its irrationality in a modern world. The historical fact is that Neo-Confucian thought, regardless of its chracter, has guided Korean culture for generations. Maybe there is something to be said for being sensitive to it in ones dealings, yes?
BTW: I noticed that in mentioning accepting Korean culture you only used pop behaviors. Of course you realize that Korean culture is quite a bit deeper than that, yes?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| rainism wrote: |
physical assimilation doesn't count for much. You could tell yourself you're "experimenting" or trying something new, etc etc etc.
It can be almost fun.
rejecting all basis for your entire education and Western cultural values which stress the importance and primacy of the individual for Korean neo Confucianism, aka Confucianism on steroids, which far outdoes other Asian societies influenced by Confucius is something different entirely.
I can easily be surrounded by such thinking, yet shut myself out from it entirely, only to be mindful of it in order not to needlessly offend anyone.
I shut myself off from it (while keeping it in back of my mind for local dealings) simply because intellectually speaking I've examined it, thought it through and consider it complete nonsense.
so saying "no one adopts Korean culture" isn't nearly as quasi racist as you may think.
unless you think dressing and talking like a 12 year old, getting a complete Hello Kitty collection and dancing to K pop is "adopting Korean culture". Unless you think eating kimchi and wearing a hanbok is adopting Korean culture..
it may be.. but only on the most superficial level. |
There is also the other side to that POV as well.
Here in the States, the influx of immigrants from Central and South America has produced very strident calls for "protecting" American culture. There is great fear among Conservatives that the huge numbers of Latino-s and their families with taint the WASP culture irreparably. As a result one hears calls for immigrants to learning the language (English), to avoid celebrating holidays of their homelands, dress and conduct their affairs in the fashion of Anglos around them. Such practices as socilizing in groups in public locations in the evenings--- a fundamental social function-- is often viewed with suspicion, as it loud playing of Latino music.
Regarding Neo-Confucian thought, I suppose the case can be made for much of its irrationality in a modern world. The historical fact is that Neo-Confucian thought, regardless of its chracter, has guided Korean culture for generations. Maybe there is something to be said for being sensitive to it in ones dealings, yes?
BTW: I noticed that in mentioning accepting Korean culture you only used pop behaviors. Of course you realize that Korean culture is quite a bit deeper than that, yes?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
hello Brucie. Enjoying the sights in Chicago are we? you think Chicagoans have an "edge" eh? compared to the suburban/rural folk eh?
well, you know what they say.. it's a big (urban) jungle out there. Eat or be eaten 
as to your Latinophobes, there are many terms to describe them. My favorite is 3 words in succession - dumb ass cracker(s). Usually found south of the Mason Dixon line which is their indigenous inbred land, but they have lots of northern white trash cousins.
re Neo Confucianism, if you've read and accept the thoughts of the classic Greek philosophers and then moved on to Rousseau, etc then it's impossible to take adopt it. It's a completely different and in many ways diametrically opposed system of beliefs.
My issue with it in Korea is actually more regarding the way it's practiced, rather than the principles behind it. It's like living in highschool, where you constantly have to look up to the graduating seniors and kiss their ass (and this doesn't even always happen in the Western world) and they take full advantage of it without being wise, kind and generous, like they're "supposed" to be.
let's take the simple issue of filial piety. All cultures have it to a certain extent, under Confucianism it's taken far. Under Korean Confucianism on steroids it amounts to life tragedies. I know young Koreans who went to school and took a major chosen by their parents.. became a worker in a profession chosen by their parents, can/will probably only get married with permission/approval of the parents, and otherwise live the rest of their lives doing what their parents approve/disapprove of. (and I know they're secretly miserable. I know at least one such Korean )
common sense tells us such parental over"guidance" usually ends in tragedy, even if the parent means well (as most do). Remember Todd Marinovich?
re K pop examples and such, that's just fluff and silliness and superficiality. that doesn't constitute "culture", at least the way I see culture.
There are very few places on Earth I can think of where our (North American/European) core values and belief systems are so diametrically opposed to the local cultural values and belief systems and especially their every day life execution (though not in all cases)
if we are Terrans, Koreans are Martians. That's why I chortle when I hear tales of people that so readily adapt to "other" cultures in places like South America, other Asian countries and even Africa and then play the blame game on those who don't or don't want to do it in Korea. Those are simply other Terran cultures, different but Terran.
I will never be culturally Korean. It's a very conscious and thought out choice. There are non American cultural traits I've adopted from other countries and certain modern supposedly "American" cultural traits I completely reject. (interestingly enough those are the one that have gained the most traction around the globe, like consumerism, keeping up with Joneses, etc etc). I pick and choose to incorporate into what/whom I want to be. I choose nothing Korean. Others are welcome to think and act differently. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Agreed, and I think that matter of HOW a culture is represented by its people is every bit as important. Here in the States, the on-going conflict with Middle Eastern cultures has produced an odd assortment of very vocal antagonists. Probably the single loudest voices come from the Christian Right who vitriolic diatribes proceed---of all things--- from a b elief in loving one's neighbor.
In my limited experience with Korean culture I have very often seen the same sort of misrepresentation, usually when interacting with other cultures. Such tenets as "knowing ones place", respecting authority, respecting elders, fidelity to ones friends are very often conditional and subject to the advantages to be garnered by the individual espousing them.
IMHE this sort of thing makes it very difficult to know which is the "real" Korean culture.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
