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Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: How do you think this kind of speaking test would be graded? |
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Can anybody offer some assumptions? 
I'm preparing some kids for the NEAT test. Here's a description courtesy of Google Translate:
"NEAT (National English Ability Test) English language proficiency test as a foreign national tests (TOEIC, TOEFL, etc.), lower dependence on four areas of language, listening, reading, speaking and writing about the details of the accomplishment, and measure an individual's proficiency the students' practical English communication skills to plan for a kidney is a test developed by the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology."
So, as I'm helping kids to plan for a kidney, one asks an intelligent question about the speaking test, and I'm not sure an answer as yet exists.
Speaking question Type 1 asks 4 related questions, such as "Who is the person you most respect? Why do you respect him or her?" and so on. The kids are supposed to give an answer that takes about 10 seconds to say, so 1-2 sentences.
The student's question was: is it better to give a higher-level answer and risk making grammatical mistakes, or to give a very, very simple answer, and focus on not making grammatical mistakes?
The test seems to be focused on natural communication, so I told her answering the question and clear pronunciation is most important, but she has a valid question...
Honestly, I think reasonable grammatical accuracy is important, but do you think a tester could lose marks for a silly grammatical mistake? Should I tell her to just aim for reasonable grammatical accuracy, and relax and try to answer the question? Or must she obsess about not making one mistake?
Thanks!! |
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DaHu
Joined: 09 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I would think that someone who said "I is" would lose points, yes. Why wouldn't they? |
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Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DaHu wrote: |
| I would think that someone who said "I is" would lose points, yes. Why wouldn't they? |
Yes...
My instinct is that if somebody's English is pretty good, they should just focus on answering the question. I don't think the examiners would be as picky about grammar as they would be if they were grading a written grammar test.
I'm thinking the best thing to do is to keep assuring the students that if they speak well and make good sentences, then they will be fine. I will recommend responding in simple sentences with standard grammar, clearly spoken, rather than trying to make brilliant sentences. |
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DaHu
Joined: 09 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Kaypea wrote: |
I'm thinking the best thing to do is to keep assuring the students that if they speak well and make good sentences, then they will be fine. I will recommend responding in simple sentences with standard grammar, clearly spoken, rather than trying to make brilliant sentences. |
That's what I always do with my students. They try so hard to use long, complicated words that they just don't sound normal. Better to stay with things that they are comfortable with and can do well. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:46 am Post subject: |
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I don't know what the age range is of your students. Would it be fair to be guided by comparable performance of age-mates in English-speaking countries? If not I would hold with the view that competence in establishing commonalities in negotiating meaning would take priority over grammatical perfection. The only draw-back seems to be the cultural preasure to demonstrate compliance to rules rather than creativity and spontineity. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
I don't know what the age range is of your students. Would it be fair to be guided by comparable performance of age-mates in English-speaking countries? If not I would hold with the view that competence in establishing commonalities in negotiating meaning would take priority over grammatical perfection. The only draw-back seems to be the cultural preasure to demonstrate compliance to rules rather than creativity and spontineity. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
You nailed it, Mr. Sims.
I want to tell my students to just relax and pretend they're talking to a nice person when they answer these questions, but what if they get dinged for some "error" that most native speakers would not even register as an error. The old cultural paradigm here, in regards to language learning, produces speakers like my co-teachers, who have a rather stilted speaking style, and who make strange mistakes which I think are due to over-thinking the grammar:
For example, "I ate too many foods," spoken after eating a big lunch.
I really want the next generation to learn the language more wholistically and naturally. This NEAT test is supposed to be a step in that direction, because it's placing some official value on semi-spontaneous production skills (writing and speaking). |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaypea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
I don't know what the age range is of your students. Would it be fair to be guided by comparable performance of age-mates in English-speaking countries? If not I would hold with the view that competence in establishing commonalities in negotiating meaning would take priority over grammatical perfection. The only draw-back seems to be the cultural preasure to demonstrate compliance to rules rather than creativity and spontineity. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
You nailed it, Mr. Sims.
I want to tell my students to just relax and pretend they're talking to a nice person when they answer these questions, but what if they get dinged for some "error" that most native speakers would not even register as an error. The old cultural paradigm here, in regards to language learning, produces speakers like my co-teachers, who have a rather stilted speaking style, and who make strange mistakes which I think are due to over-thinking the grammar:
For example, "I ate too many foods," spoken after eating a big lunch.
I really want the next generation to learn the language more wholistically and naturally. This NEAT test is supposed to be a step in that direction, because it's placing some official value on semi-spontaneous production skills (writing and speaking). |
Funny you should mention this. I noticed that the recruiters who contacted me were far more accomplished in writing their emails than in conversing on the telephone. Writing provides the chance to contemplate what one is about to say as well as revise. Conversation requires a range of responses which is why I have never been a fan of structured dialogues. Instead I view the basic substitution drill as more beneficial in getting a person to be more flexible in their responses. But thats just me.
BTW: Can you give me some idea of how the grading would be weighted?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Kaypea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
I don't know what the age range is of your students. Would it be fair to be guided by comparable performance of age-mates in English-speaking countries? If not I would hold with the view that competence in establishing commonalities in negotiating meaning would take priority over grammatical perfection. The only draw-back seems to be the cultural preasure to demonstrate compliance to rules rather than creativity and spontineity. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
You nailed it, Mr. Sims.
I want to tell my students to just relax and pretend they're talking to a nice person when they answer these questions, but what if they get dinged for some "error" that most native speakers would not even register as an error. The old cultural paradigm here, in regards to language learning, produces speakers like my co-teachers, who have a rather stilted speaking style, and who make strange mistakes which I think are due to over-thinking the grammar:
For example, "I ate too many foods," spoken after eating a big lunch.
I really want the next generation to learn the language more wholistically and naturally. This NEAT test is supposed to be a step in that direction, because it's placing some official value on semi-spontaneous production skills (writing and speaking). |
Funny you should mention this. I noticed that the recruiters who contacted me were far more accomplished in writing their emails than in conversing on the telephone. Writing provides the chance to contemplate what one is about to say as well as revise. Conversation requires a range of responses which is why I have never been a fan of structured dialogues. Instead I view the basic substitution drill as more beneficial in getting a person to be more flexible in their responses. But thats just me.
BTW: Can you give me some idea of how the grading would be weighted?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
It is interesting that you mention preferring the basic substitution drill to structured dialogues. I prefer them as well, and think they are to grammar learning what phonics is to reading. I think that if a beginning student practices grammar-- actually practices it, rather than just learn about its rules-- he or she has more freedom to communicate in the language than someone who learns a bunch of grammar rules (in L1) and then memorizes some really stilted "communicative" dialogues. Yucky.
As for the NEAT test grading, it's unclear. My NEAT test prep guides have answer sections, but don't offer any sort of grading rubric: for the speaking section, they give sample answers, but nothing along the lines of "5 points for 2 whole, grammatically correct sentences; 4 points for answering the question with a few errors" or anything like that.
The NEAT test is still in its planning stages. It may or may not actually happen, but there are already test prep books for it, as well as prep classes available at your local hogwan. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaypea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Kaypea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
I don't know what the age range is of your students. Would it be fair to be guided by comparable performance of age-mates in English-speaking countries? If not I would hold with the view that competence in establishing commonalities in negotiating meaning would take priority over grammatical perfection. The only draw-back seems to be the cultural preasure to demonstrate compliance to rules rather than creativity and spontineity. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
You nailed it, Mr. Sims.
I want to tell my students to just relax and pretend they're talking to a nice person when they answer these questions, but what if they get dinged for some "error" that most native speakers would not even register as an error. The old cultural paradigm here, in regards to language learning, produces speakers like my co-teachers, who have a rather stilted speaking style, and who make strange mistakes which I think are due to over-thinking the grammar:
For example, "I ate too many foods," spoken after eating a big lunch.
I really want the next generation to learn the language more wholistically and naturally. This NEAT test is supposed to be a step in that direction, because it's placing some official value on semi-spontaneous production skills (writing and speaking). |
Funny you should mention this. I noticed that the recruiters who contacted me were far more accomplished in writing their emails than in conversing on the telephone. Writing provides the chance to contemplate what one is about to say as well as revise. Conversation requires a range of responses which is why I have never been a fan of structured dialogues. Instead I view the basic substitution drill as more beneficial in getting a person to be more flexible in their responses. But thats just me.
BTW: Can you give me some idea of how the grading would be weighted?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
It is interesting that you mention preferring the basic substitution drill to structured dialogues. I prefer them as well, and think they are to grammar learning what phonics is to reading. I think that if a beginning student practices grammar-- actually practices it, rather than just learn about its rules-- he or she has more freedom to communicate in the language than someone who learns a bunch of grammar rules (in L1) and then memorizes some really stilted "communicative" dialogues. Yucky.
As for the NEAT test grading, it's unclear. My NEAT test prep guides have answer sections, but don't offer any sort of grading rubric: for the speaking section, they give sample answers, but nothing along the lines of "5 points for 2 whole, grammatically correct sentences; 4 points for answering the question with a few errors" or anything like that.
The NEAT test is still in its planning stages. It may or may not actually happen, but there are already test prep books for it, as well as prep classes available at your local hogwan. |
Weighting could be as complex or simple as one could care to make it, but I could easily imagine a gradient of increasing expectations not unlike the SRA Reading Labs for reading comprehension.
BTW: I wholly agree about the grammar. I remember hundreds of hours spent diagramming sentences in High School, much good it did me. What was the greatest assistance for my writing skills was have a voracious appetite for reading non-fiction and fiction both.
In like manner my ability to speak had little to do with reading about it, but in getting into situations where nuanced delivery was required. Enter role-playing.
I firmly believe that communication skills are built by communicating, not by reading about how to communicate. But now I'm preaching to the choir, yes?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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