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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Highwayman wrote: |
| Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Yeah, we're just imagining that American is the wealthiest and most influential country in the world that has invented far more things in modern history than any other country. How arrogant  |
Highwayman wasn't denying the achievements of many Americans, rather the idea that they are somehow superior to other countries.
The USA is the largest highly developed country on the planet, so of course you will invent more things and be wealthier than the likes of Britain and Germany - your population is north of 300m people! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Oxbridge has like what, a 400 YEAR head start? If anyone is even anywhere close it's because someone has been laying back on their laurels and expecting to be worshipped because they were first, rather than what they have actually done.
This is too reminiscent of the all too common Brit mind set: Great-great-grandpa did something, so we are better. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Oxbridge has like what, a 400 YEAR head start? If anyone is even anywhere close it's because someone has been laying back on their laurels and expecting to be worshipped because they were first, rather than what they have actually done.
This is too reminiscent of the all too common Brit mind set: Great-great-grandpa did something, so we are better. |
a.) Oxbridge are not *the first*. That would be the university of Bologna I believe, within Europe at least.
b.) You seriously think you can meaningfully compare 400 years in the Middle Ages and Early Modern period to the 19th and 20th centuries?!
c.) Since Oxbridge are in the top 5, you can hardly say they've been laying back on their laurels. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Highwayman wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Hugo85 wrote: |
Did you make it to the part where he explained that Canada has 65 minutes hours for a total of 20 hours per day?
I'm all for stupid shows only showing the stupidest answers that people will believe temporarily only because they are on TV, but believing that is pretty far from "not knowing stuff about Canada". |
That's horrendously stupid, but I could have pulled the same thing with some of the folks I went to school with in Canada. How many people do they have to ask before catching someone gullible enough to believe that? |
Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Well I don't think we think NOTHING can even come close, but yeah, we do think we have the best universities in the world. Ranks such as this one help support that belief of ours- silly us!
And what engineering-focused universities outside the USA match MIT and CalTech? Just wondering (honestly)... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Highwayman wrote: |
| Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Yeah, we're just imagining that American is the wealthiest and most influential country in the world that has invented far more things in modern history than any other country. How arrogant |
Highwayman wasn't denying the achievements of many Americans, rather the idea that they are somehow superior to other countries. |
Superior may be relative, but I'm pretty sure the US has "achieved" more than any other country in world history by a fairly huge margin (with Britain possibly a distant second). If you wish to dispute that, then go ahead... I don't think you'll get too far in that debate, however.
| Quote: |
| The USA is the largest highly developed country on the planet, so of course you will invent more things and be wealthier than the likes of Britain and Germany - your population is north of 300m people! |
Yeah well, the discussion isn't based on "per capita". It's based on which universities are the best, period. If we happen to have the world's largest economy and 300 million people to concentrate into making the top universities... well, that still doesn't change the fact that they're the top universities. But to claim that some podunk uni that few people outside of Canada have even heard of is better than Harvard is just silly. Unless you have some extremely profound evidence to the contrary (I won't hold my breath)... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Like comparing the Toledo Mud Hens to the New York Yankees. |
You from Michigan/NE Ohio (Which should be ours- Stevens T. Mason, your fight goes on!!!)? Tigers Fan? |
Naw, I was just grasping for any minor league team name to use and thought the "Mud Hens" sounded pretty cool  And no dissing intended (no dog in that fight)... |
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Hugo85
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Oxbridge has like what, a 400 YEAR head start? If anyone is even anywhere close it's because someone has been laying back on their laurels and expecting to be worshipped because they were first, rather than what they have actually done.
This is too reminiscent of the all too common Brit mind set: Great-great-grandpa did something, so we are better. |
a.) Oxbridge are not *the first*. That would be the university of Bologna I believe, within Europe at least.
b.) You seriously think you can meaningfully compare 400 years in the Middle Ages and Early Modern period to the 19th and 20th centuries?!
c.) Since Oxbridge are in the top 5, you can hardly say they've been laying back on their laurels. |
Top 5... in the UK? Because they're not top 5 in the world  |
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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Highwayman wrote: |
| Get real. Those folks were retarded. And it's not the general ignorance of people that I'm taking issue with here. It's the arrogance of Americans, insulated from the rest of the world, who think the Ivy League is far and away the best set of schools and that nothing in Canada or Europe can even come close. |
Yeah, we're just imagining that American is the wealthiest and most influential country in the world that has invented far more things in modern history than any other country. How arrogant |
Highwayman wasn't denying the achievements of many Americans, rather the idea that they are somehow superior to other countries. |
Superior may be relative, but I'm pretty sure the US has "achieved" more than any other country in world history by a fairly huge margin (with Britain possibly a distant second). If you wish to dispute that, then go ahead... I don't think you'll get too far in that debate, however.
| Quote: |
| The USA is the largest highly developed country on the planet, so of course you will invent more things and be wealthier than the likes of Britain and Germany - your population is north of 300m people! |
Yeah well, the discussion isn't based on "per capita". It's based on which universities are the best, period. If we happen to have the world's largest economy and 300 million people to concentrate into making the top universities... well, that still doesn't change the fact that they're the top universities. But to claim that some podunk uni that few people outside of Canada have even heard of is better than Harvard is just silly. Unless you have some extremely profound evidence to the contrary (I won't hold my breath)... |
How do you measure these achievements? There have been far more scientific advances in the past century or so than before because previous work allowed this. I'll remind you that British achievements in science include Newton's laws, Maxwell's laws, Dalton's work on the atom, natural selection, DNA, unification of quantum theory and special relativity and a list of others which is too long to write in full, covering pretty much the entire basis of modern science. Most other countries would also be able to put forward a similar list. I do not dispute that the USA is currently the world leader in science (and will probably continue to be for a long time yet, given its size, wealth and intellectual capital), but to say that it has achieved more than any other nation IN HISTORY and that Britain is a distant second is more than a little unfair.
For your second point, I wasn't making claims about unknown universities in Canada. In fact I didn't mention Canada at all. I just felt that you had grasped the wrong end of the stick with what Highwayman was saying.
Last edited by johnnyenglishteacher2 on Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Well I don't think we think NOTHING can even come close, but yeah, we do think we have the best universities in the world. Ranks such as this one help support that belief of ours- silly us!
And what engineering-focused universities outside the USA match MIT and CalTech? Just wondering (honestly)... |
As I have already said, nobody is denying that the USA has more top universities than any other country. That's partly because you are bigger than any other country. Wouldn't you be a bit worried if Australia had as many top unis as the USA?
What you need to consider is how well these universities do in turning out enough high quality graduates to service the needs of that country. The USA needs far more engineers than Sweden because the USA has more roads/dams/railways/sewers etc. to design, build and maintain than Sweden. The USA also has a larger population to support a much bigger hi-tech industry. Therefore it's normal for the USA to turn out far more people in this profession, and the number of elite institutions created for this function will reflect the society's needs. If Sweden suddenly decided it wanted as many top engineering departments as the USA, the result would be 100s of thousands of unemployed engineers.
For the MIT/Caltech comparison, there aren't too many universities in other countries which focus solely on engineering - usually the engineering department would be part of a wider university.
Personally, as a Brit, whose universities are very well represented in most world rankings systems, I'm a bit more concerned about the fact that we (like the USA) do so poorly in the OECD PISA tables. It's all very well having top universities, but if our teenagers are getting trounced by other nations, it does not bode well for the future.  |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugo85 wrote: |
| Top 5... in the UK? Because they're not top 5 in the world |
Ok, my bad, they're joint 6th. Clearly, they've been slacking off. I roll my eyes at you:
I don't believe these heavily anglocentric ratings charts are fair to European universities anyway... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| As I have already said, nobody is denying that the USA has more top universities than any other country. |
Actually, apparently some people are denying that, namely that Canadian chap who was saying Harvard was "crap" and calling Americans stupid. That was pretty much the only issue here. No need to open up a whole other discussion about GDP or scientific discoveries per capita or any such thing... |
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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| As I have already said, nobody is denying that the USA has more top universities than any other country. |
Actually, apparently some people are denying that, namely that Canadian chap who was saying Harvard was "crap" and calling Americans stupid. |
Sorry, my mistake, must have skipped over a page or 2, didn't see Highwayman's earlier comments. |
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Highwayman
Joined: 22 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not denying that the US has top-tier universities. I'm denying that grads of the so-called Ivy League are somehow special because they have far and away the best education in the world, and that no other universities in the world can compare.
It's just another example of Americans' exceptionalism, which is eroding as quickly as their economy and military.
George W. Bush went to Yale and Harvard, for Christ's sake. Need I say more?
In any case, after just a few decades at the top (because Europe and Japan had leveled each other and most of the world) it's all coming to an end ... Farewell, American hegemony. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Highwayman wrote: |
| I'm not denying that the US has top-tier universities. I'm denying that grads of the so-called Ivy League are somehow special because they have far and away the best education in the world, and that no other universities in the world can compare. |
Nothing in Canada can compare to Ivy League. If you think otherwise, then fine, you can keep it. See how far you get in life compared to a typical Harvard graduate...
| Quote: |
| It's just another example of Americans' exceptionalism, which is eroding as quickly as their economy and military. |
Actually the US economy is still the largest in the world by far, as is the US military. Whether you like it or not, it's an undisputed fact.
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| George W. Bush went to Yale and Harvard, for Christ's sake. Need I say more? |
Actually yes, you need say more. First of all, it's very debatable whether Bush is actually the fool he seems to be. I always saw him for what he really was: a shrewd politician who played up his image of a being a hick from Texas (in fact his family are blue-blood east coast establishment people, whose fortune came from banking) and used it to distract people from the fact that he actually got his way with nearly every policy he enacted. Seriously, he achieved all his aims (nearly all evil, but nevertheless), so how dumb can he be?
At any rate, that's just one example. How many dumb ass Canadian politicians have graduated from the top 2nd-tier universities in Canada? Probably all of them.
| Quote: |
| In any case, after just a few decades at the top (because Europe and Japan had leveled each other and most of the world) it's all coming to an end ... Farewell, American hegemony. |
Depends what you mean by hegemony. American hegemony has already basically been replaced by globalist hegemony (offshore banks and multinational corporations, most of the largest of which are from America anyway). The American military will continue to be the muscle of the global elite, even if the middle class has to be bankrupted to sustain it. This will not change. Sad, but true. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Highwayman wrote: |
I'm not denying that the US has top-tier universities. I'm denying that grads of the so-called Ivy League are somehow special because they have far and away the best education in the world, and that no other universities in the world can compare.
It's just another example of Americans' exceptionalism, which is eroding as quickly as their economy and military.
George W. Bush went to Yale and Harvard, for Christ's sake. Need I say more?
In any case, after just a few decades at the top (because Europe and Japan had leveled each other and most of the world) it's all coming to an end ... Farewell, American hegemony. |
Okay, but then you cite Canada, which does not have any universities on par with the Ivies. |
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