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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| liberal whining reealllllyyy grates on me. What the entitlement whiners fail to realize is that they have stuff available to them that people even 50 years ago (or nowadays in another country) could only dream of. But because someone else has more somehow they feel they are "poor". |
Such people will never be satisfied anyway, because they have no moral compass.
The moral compass of the west has been lost over the past 50 years and replaced with secular relativistic libertarianism.
The degenrate youth you saw rampaging and looting are not a product of poverty, they're a product of :
a) Loss of christianity and traditional values
b) Breakdown of the family unit: one-parent families
c) Loss of discipline and respect for teachers and those in authority.
d) Glamorisation of violence and degeneracy in the media
etc etc.
basically western society has spent te past 50 years ripping the rivets out of their society and suddenly they wonder whats happening when it all falls apart. |
This is what every generation says, but it's always wrong. We are not, as a whole, any more or less moral than generations before us. It's an absurd idea. What about the 20's, you can sure as hell bet that violence and gangsterism was glamorized then. Do we want to return to the morality of slavery and segregation? If you look at crime rates you can see that they've actually been falling recently. Especially over the last ten years.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
The idea that people in the past always respected authority and teachers is too absurd to even discus. Of course some people did, and some people didn't. You would think that they wouldn't have had to paddle kids so often if they were always good. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| This is what every generation says, but it's always wrong. We are not, as a whole, any more or less moral than generations before us. It's an absurd idea. |
But is it?
This is the first time that the UK has seen such rioting- purely for the sake of looting and theft.
Yes, there have been riots before, but over important issues.
Its a defining moment.
You are also ignoring the fact that the UK has seen significant changes in social structure. The proportion of people living in one-parent families is three times higher than it was40 years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6542031.stm
| Quote: |
One-parent families on the rise
The Office for National Statistics said children in the UK were three times more likely to live in one-parent households than they were in 1972. |
But you're claiming this has had no effect?
I don't have any links but I suspect that most of the rioters are from one-parent households.
Sorry but Britain is not "the same as it has always been" . |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| liberal whining reealllllyyy grates on me. What the entitlement whiners fail to realize is that they have stuff available to them that people even 50 years ago (or nowadays in another country) could only dream of. But because someone else has more somehow they feel they are "poor". |
Such people will never be satisfied anyway, because they have no moral compass.
The moral compass of the west has been lost over the past 50 years and replaced with secular relativistic libertarianism.
The degenrate youth you saw rampaging and looting are not a product of poverty, they're a product of :
a) Loss of christianity and traditional values
b) Breakdown of the family unit: one-parent families
c) Loss of discipline and respect for teachers and those in authority.
d) Glamorisation of violence and degeneracy in the media
etc etc.
basically western society has spent te past 50 years ripping the rivets out of their society and suddenly they wonder whats happening when it all falls apart. |
This is what every generation says, but it's always wrong. We are not, as a whole, any more or less moral than generations before us. It's an absurd idea. What about the 20's, you can sure as hell bet that violence and gangsterism was glamorized then. Do we want to return to the morality of slavery and segregation? If you look at crime rates you can see that they've actually been falling recently. Especially over the last ten years.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
The idea that people in the past always respected authority and teachers is too absurd to even discus. Of course some people did, and some people didn't. You would think that they wouldn't have had to paddle kids so often if they were always good. |
In spite of all that there were two constants- How a family should be structured and respect for organized religion, whatever it may be.
Those two are gone now.
Hence why this may be different this time. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| What about the 20's, you can sure as hell bet that violence and gangsterism was glamorized then. |
Really? Any evidence of that? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| This is what every generation says, but it's always wrong. We are not, as a whole, any more or less moral than generations before us. It's an absurd idea. |
But is it?
This is the first time that the UK has seen such rioting- purely for the sake of looting and theft.
Yes, there have been riots before, but over important issues.
Its a defining moment.
You are also ignoring the fact that the UK has seen significant changes in social structure. The proportion of people living in one-parent families is three times higher than it was40 years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6542031.stm
| Quote: |
One-parent families on the rise
The Office for National Statistics said children in the UK were three times more likely to live in one-parent households than they were in 1972. |
But you're claiming this has had no effect?
I don't have any links but I suspect that most of the rioters are from one-parent households.
Sorry but Britain is not "the same as it has always been" . |
Sorry, I made a mistake, and will own up to it. I was talking about the U.S. as some posters where talking about the U.S. earlier in the thread. I don't know enough about the U.K. to comment about it. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What about the 20's, you can sure as hell bet that violence and gangsterism was glamorized then. |
Really? Any evidence of that? |
Sorry, I was talking about the U.S. I don't know if that's true in Britian. Some posters mentioned the U.S. earlier in the thread and I think that Steel Rails was refering to the U.S. I was talking about Al Capone and Dillinger and others that captured the publics imagination, and news paper pages during that era. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I was talking about Al Capone and Dillinger and others that captured the publics imagination, and news paper pages during that era |
I thought that's what you might have been referring to. However, newspaper coverage of certain gangsters in the 1920s and 1930s cannot be compared to the treatment of such behaviour by the media today. Probably the biggest-selling musical genre, hip-hop, is largely based on glamourizing a criminal lifestyle.
All one needs do is compare the music, art, and cinema of today with that of 50 years ago to see how things have changed, in most cases for the worse. Popular culture is now saturated with images of sex and violence. Almost all taboos have been swept aside, and this has had deep and very damaging effects on society. I know its popular to say 'twas ever thus,' but it simply isn't true. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree with bigverne's point about modern music. Music should celebrate the best in mankind and lament the worst. Instead, modern music often celebrates and glamorizes the worst while cheapening or mocking the best. I'm not saying there is some 1:1 correlation between listening to some thug music and becoming a criminal, but such music is at the very least symptomatic of -- and very likely to at least some degree a reinforcer of -- cultural dysfunction. That's not to condemn styles in-and-of themselves, only content. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was talking about Al Capone and Dillinger and others that captured the publics imagination, and news paper pages during that era |
I thought that's what you might have been referring to. However, newspaper coverage of certain gangsters in the 1920s and 1930s cannot be compared to the treatment of such behaviour by the media today. Probably the biggest-selling musical genre, hip-hop, is largely based on glamourizing a criminal lifestyle.
All one needs do is compare the music, art, and cinema of today with that of 50 years ago to see how things have changed, in most cases for the worse. Popular culture is now saturated with images of sex and violence. Almost all taboos have been swept aside, and this has had deep and very damaging effects on society. I know its popular to say 'twas ever thus,' but it simply isn't true. |
Popular music has always been about, and had songs about killing, violence, and drugs and drinking. What do you think murder ballads are all about, or drinking songs. There were plenty of gangster pics being made, along with other violent or sexual movies, since the beginning of movies. Most of early comedy was based largely on physical slapstick violence. Before there was gangsta rap, there was outlaw country musicians. The 80's had their stupid hair metal all about cheap sex and drugs and not listening to authority. I mena this is what every generation says about the ones before it. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I agree with bigverne's point about modern music. Music should celebrate the best in mankind and lament the worst. Instead, modern music often celebrates and glamorizes the worst while cheapening or mocking the best. I'm not saying there is some 1:1 correlation between listening to some thug music and becoming a criminal, but such music is at the very least symptomatic of -- and very likely to at least some degree a reinforcer of -- cultural dysfunction. That's not to condemn styles in-and-of themselves, only content. |
I have to ask why do you think that music should try to function as some sort of social enginering by only talking about the best in human nature? Many rappers consider themselves as street reporters, there is as much violence on NBC as there is on a rap record. Again this was happening long before the "thugs" starting making music. The anti-hero has been a fixture in popular culture for as long as there has been culture. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I agree with bigverne's point about modern music. Music should celebrate the best in mankind and lament the worst. Instead, modern music often celebrates and glamorizes the worst while cheapening or mocking the best. I'm not saying there is some 1:1 correlation between listening to some thug music and becoming a criminal, but such music is at the very least symptomatic of -- and very likely to at least some degree a reinforcer of -- cultural dysfunction. That's not to condemn styles in-and-of themselves, only content. |
I have to ask why do you think that music should try to function as some sort of social enginering by only talking about the best in human nature? |
Because that is the affect it has, whether we will it or not. One's intentions when they write a song in which they boast of killing people, raping women, hating the police, and breaking the law are irrelevant to the actual effects it will have when mass marketed with an aggressive focus on young listeners.
If you want to pretend music has no impact on human behavior, well, you're welcome to do so. If you want to pretend that modern technology doesn't make music more accessible than ever to our young, you're also welcome to do so. Without believing at least one of these two propositions, you are in no position to disagree with me, and if you do believe either of these propositions, this conversation simply isn't worth the time. Whichever it is, there's nothing more to say. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I agree with bigverne's point about modern music. Music should celebrate the best in mankind and lament the worst. Instead, modern music often celebrates and glamorizes the worst while cheapening or mocking the best. I'm not saying there is some 1:1 correlation between listening to some thug music and becoming a criminal, but such music is at the very least symptomatic of -- and very likely to at least some degree a reinforcer of -- cultural dysfunction. That's not to condemn styles in-and-of themselves, only content. |
I have to ask why do you think that music should try to function as some sort of social enginering by only talking about the best in human nature? |
Because that is the affect it has, whether we will it or not. One's intentions when they write a song in which they boast of killing people, raping women, hating the police, and breaking the law are irrelevant to the actual effects it will have when mass marketed with an aggressive focus on young listeners.
If you want to pretend music has no impact on human behavior, well, you're welcome to do so. If you want to pretend that modern technology doesn't make music more accessible than ever to our young, you're also welcome to do so. Without believing at least one of these two propositions, you are in no position to disagree with me, and if you do believe either of these propositions, this conversation simply isn't worth the time. Whichever it is, there's nothing more to say. |
Which songs, that are popular and widespread, talk about raping women? I'm tired of this cliche being repeated as it is true. I listen to lots of rap, and very very few rappers talk about this, and the ones that do are rare or not popular. I guess Eminem did ten years ago, and Odd Future are doing it now, but that is hardly wide spread.
As to hating the police, if I lived in the projects I might hate them too, if they are corrupt and target certian segements then it's a logical thing to do. Reforming the police is a more useful action than condeming rap.
Maybe they talk about killing people too much, but people talk about what they know. A better solution is to work on ending the drug war and less people will know killing. Also many rappers and other musicians condem the violence, or try to promote other lifestyles. I think that music has some influence, but that it is small at most. You want to know the problem, it's a simple matter of demographics. The most dangerous demographic for a society to have is young unemployed males. The answers are simple. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I listen to lots of rap... |
And now I see what all your protesting is about.
I made it very clear why this conversation wasn't worth engaging in. The fact that you have revealed insecurities regarding personal behavior to be the cause of your desire to pursue it only reinforces my original conclusion. Have a nice day. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I have to ask why do you think that music should try to function as some sort of social enginering by only talking about the best in human nature? |
I never said it should. I was merely pointing out that comparing today's music with that of 50 years ago says a great deal about changing social values, and what is deemed acceptable or taboo. Compare Smokey Robinson to Lil John.
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| Many rappers consider themselves as street reporters, there is as much violence on NBC as there is on a rap record. |
If you can't see the difference between media 'reporting' violence and criminality, and videos of hip-hop stars, surrounded by hot women, dripping in gold, and rapping about their criminal lifestyles, then I guess I can't help you. One of these has a great appeal to impressionable youngsters, the other does not.
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| Again this was happening long before the "thugs" starting making music. The anti-hero has been a fixture in popular culture for as long as there has been culture. |
True, but again you miss the point. You seemed to be saying that violence and criminality has always been glamourized. That may well be true, but it is today being done to a far greater extent than ever before. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have to ask why do you think that music should try to function as some sort of social enginering by only talking about the best in human nature? |
I never said it should. I was merely pointing out that comparing today's music with that of 50 years ago says a great deal about changing social values, and what is deemed acceptable or taboo. Compare Smokey Robinson to Lil John.
| Quote: |
| Many rappers consider themselves as street reporters, there is as much violence on NBC as there is on a rap record. |
If you can't see the difference between media 'reporting' violence and criminality, and videos of hip-hop stars, surrounded by hot women, dripping in gold, and rapping about their criminal lifestyles, then I guess I can't help you. One of these has a great appeal to impressionable youngsters, the other does not.
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| Again this was happening long before the "thugs" starting making music. The anti-hero has been a fixture in popular culture for as long as there has been culture. |
True, but again you miss the point. You seemed to be saying that violence and criminality has always been glamourized. That may well be true, but it is today being done to a far greater extent than ever before. |
Where's your proof of this, though? It's more out there, but that's because of mprovements in technology, not because of changes in human nature. It's there in the plays and literature from long ago. This is the same as every generation does, the next is always so scandalous. Wasn't it not that long ago people were saying the same things about Elvis? I don't see a huge gap between Lil' Jon and James Brown. |
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