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| Who are you voting for/would you vote for? |
| Obama |
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43% |
[ 37 ] |
| Romney |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
| Huckabee |
|
2% |
[ 2 ] |
| Trump |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Paul |
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34% |
[ 29 ] |
| Other GOP Canbdidate |
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2% |
[ 2 ] |
| Other Democrat Candidate |
|
3% |
[ 3 ] |
| Third party |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Other |
|
2% |
[ 2 ] |
| Not voting/don't want to vote |
|
5% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 85 |
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| Author |
Message |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| weso1 wrote: |
How about roads? Do you like roads? If we left it to the private sector, you'd have to pay a toll every time you left your driveway. If they build the road, who's to say they can't put a toll up every 500 feet if they wanted to?
Oh yeah, the military. How the hell do you plan on having a military if you cut all the taxes? DoD is 60% of the total budget. So unless there is a private company with a few million employees, an entire air force and navy, and an annual operating budget of over half a trillion dollars... we'll get invaded by Canada... and they'll win.
A Libertarian is someone who sees something working in practice and then tries to dispute it with theory. |
Great. Just what we need on this forum. Another poster who loves strawmen. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| weso1 wrote: |
| Libertarians are such goobers. If it was up to you, there would be nothing a business couldn't sell. Ron Paul would let companies sell heroin, as long as they can turn a profit. |
There are many advantages to decriminalizing/legalizing drugs: quality control so people don't OD on adulterations, removing the profit motive financing criminals dealing them, and dismantling the prison industrial complex.
Slavery infringes upon another's rights so is most definitely NOT a libertarian ideal. I can't believe I am explaining this.
Not only do harsh anti-kiddy porn laws make the problem worse as documented by NYU Law Professor Amy Adler in her Columbia Law Review article The Perverse Law of Child Pornography, but when kp has been legally available, child sex assaults have decreased in every country in which it has been studied. So yeah, certainly possession for private use should certainly be legal.
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| Quote: |
| Oh yeah, the military. How the hell do you plan on having a military if you cut all the taxes? DoD is 60% of the total budget. So unless there is a private company with a few million employees, an entire air force and navy, and an annual operating budget of over half a trillion dollars... we'll get invaded by Canada... and they'll win. |
Slash the military as much as possible. End all (5 or 6?) current wars, bring all troops home, and close all 700 overseas bases. The MIC does nothing but suck the lifeblood out of the country.
I leave you with the words of Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, (1881 - 1940), USMC, double recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor:
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| I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was part of a racket all the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
How about roads? Do you like roads? If we left it to the private sector, you'd have to pay a toll every time you left your driveway. If they build the road, who's to say they can't put a toll up every 500 feet if they wanted to?
Oh yeah, the military. How the hell do you plan on having a military if you cut all the taxes? DoD is 60% of the total budget. So unless there is a private company with a few million employees, an entire air force and navy, and an annual operating budget of over half a trillion dollars... we'll get invaded by Canada... and they'll win.
A Libertarian is someone who sees something working in practice and then tries to dispute it with theory. |
Great. Just what we need on this forum. Another poster who loves strawmen. |
This is not really fair, Kuros. You know that 99.2% of what he says is right. (We can quibble about the percentage, but not the main point.)
PS: If visitorq is not the all-time internet champion of strawmen, then I am gopher.  |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
How about roads? Do you like roads? If we left it to the private sector, you'd have to pay a toll every time you left your driveway. If they build the road, who's to say they can't put a toll up every 500 feet if they wanted to?
Oh yeah, the military. How the hell do you plan on having a military if you cut all the taxes? DoD is 60% of the total budget. So unless there is a private company with a few million employees, an entire air force and navy, and an annual operating budget of over half a trillion dollars... we'll get invaded by Canada... and they'll win.
A Libertarian is someone who sees something working in practice and then tries to dispute it with theory. |
Great. Just what we need on this forum. Another poster who loves strawmen. |
This is not really fair, Kuros. You know that 99.2% of what he says is right. (We can quibble about the percentage, but not the main point.)
PS: If visitorq is not the all-time internet champion of strawmen, then I am gopher. |
Ha, you probably are gopher. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
How about roads? Do you like roads? If we left it to the private sector, you'd have to pay a toll every time you left your driveway. If they build the road, who's to say they can't put a toll up every 500 feet if they wanted to?
Oh yeah, the military. How the hell do you plan on having a military if you cut all the taxes? DoD is 60% of the total budget. So unless there is a private company with a few million employees, an entire air force and navy, and an annual operating budget of over half a trillion dollars... we'll get invaded by Canada... and they'll win.
A Libertarian is someone who sees something working in practice and then tries to dispute it with theory. |
Great. Just what we need on this forum. Another poster who loves strawmen. |
This is not really fair, Kuros. You know that 99.2% of what he says is right. (We can quibble about the percentage, but not the main point.)
PS: If visitorq is not the all-time internet champion of strawmen, then I am gopher. |
As I've tried to explain, libertarianism includes a diverse set of beliefs and while there are common principles, libertarians are a diverse bunch. But the MSNBC and Jacob Weisberg crowd see fit to characterize libertarians by the most extreme of those viewpoints. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| weso1 wrote: |
How about roads? Do you like roads? If we left it to the private sector, you'd have to pay a toll every time you left your driveway. If they build the road, who's to say they can't put a toll up every 500 feet if they wanted to?
Oh yeah, the military. How the hell do you plan on having a military if you cut all the taxes? DoD is 60% of the total budget. So unless there is a private company with a few million employees, an entire air force and navy, and an annual operating budget of over half a trillion dollars... we'll get invaded by Canada... and they'll win.
A Libertarian is someone who sees something working in practice and then tries to dispute it with theory. |
America spends too much on its highway system. The highway system has helped prop up America's car culture, which many consider unsustainable because of the amount of petrol it consumes on a daily basis. Here is American per capita petrol consumption compared to other nations.
The American military is also far too big. America's defense spending is just about half of the entire world's military spending. This is insane.
American GSEs were instrumental in causing the housing crisis. Oh, yes they were. The 1970s era GSEs were specifically designed to promote mortgage securitization. As a result, the government insures over 95% of US mortgages, but only 25% of America's health care.
Liberals often repeatedly fail to recognize the distortions public policy inflicts on society as a whole, and ignore the (barely) hidden subsidies to private industries and interests.
If you think America is doing well today in practice, than I think you need to reexamine your political assumptions. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As I've tried to explain, libertarianism includes a diverse set of beliefs and while there are common principles, libertarians are a diverse bunch. |
Faction 1: Republicans with commitment issues
Faction 2: Republicans who have discovered weed
Faction 3: Republicans who see a commie under every bed (JBS)
Faction 4: Ron Paul Republicans
Faction 5: Republicans who think Venusian lizards living under the New Mexico desert are trying to rule the world
Faction 6: ?
As I've tried to explain, minor quibbles between factions... I doubt a vegetarian considers Moslems and Jews as more virtuous than Christians because they won't eat pork. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As I've tried to explain, libertarianism includes a diverse set of beliefs and while there are common principles, libertarians are a diverse bunch. |
Faction 1: Republicans with commitment issues
Faction 2: Republicans who have discovered weed
Faction 3: Republicans who see a commie under every bed (JBS)
Faction 4: Ron Paul Republicans
Faction 5: Republicans who think Venusian lizards living under the New Mexico desert are trying to rule the world
Faction 6: ?
As I've tried to explain, minor quibbles between factions... I doubt a vegetarian considers Moslems and Jews as more virtuous than Christians because they won't eat pork. |
^ Bullshit
Liberals are happy with corruption if its government corruption, but not if its corporate corruption. But only corporate corruption, because most don't understand private equity or the like.
Yay. Strawmanning is fun.
----------------------
But seriously.
Libertarians are pro-market, pro-Federalism, pro-individual, and as suspicious of the gov't as of corporations.
We believe in the subjective theory of labor value, not the Marxist error that labor is worth whatever an academician might posit. That's because people bargain for their labor. Indeed, subjective theory of value aligns with the common law theory of contract.
We believe that direct democracy is dangerous, and that administration should be kept to the States, but individual rights protected by all levels of the gov't. If someone disputes the EPC and DPC within the 14th Amendment, they are probably a Republican, not a libertarian.
We believe that all things being equal, low taxation is preferable to high taxation. We don't believe in propping up businesses. We believe in experimentation and failure, two values liberals occasionally profess to believe in the public sphere, but when it comes to the economic sphere, become risk-adverse and protectionist. But experimentation in gov't should happen on the state level, where the laboratories of democracy reside.
Libertarians do believe in gov't regulation that provides information to consumers. Open markets require open information. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Libertarians do believe in gov't regulation that combats fraud and corruption. Libertarians do not take sides in an economic transaction: we do not favor workers over employers, do not favor employers over consumers, do not favor consumers over workers. We believe in an efficient and agreed upon arrangement between the parties. Libertarians believe in win-win outcomes. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I Voted for Obama, Now I'm Voting for Ron Paul
I truly believe that I speak for so many young progressives that would be proponents for peace, clean food and water, and a government that actually helps and cares for its citizens.
After 8 years of GWB and the lies about WMDs, 9-11, Monsanto, Iraq...etc...anyone coming from the other party looked like a better choice. I was somehow still under the illusion that the Democratic Party would work for the people and not corporate/banking/defense industry interests.
I cried when Obama won. I really thought it was a new dawn for the US and the world as a whole. I was so ashamed of the Bush administration... all the violence and greed just made me ashamed to be from the US. Somehow though I still thought that there was a difference between the two parties.
I have to thank Mr. Obama for waking me up to this truth. When he showed support for Monsanto and big agribusiness, the continued (and escalated) warmongering, and even the continued selling-out of the American taxpayer to the Federal Reserve, the lightbulb went off in my head -- they are all simply employees.
On the other hand, Dr. Ron Paul seems to be the only candidate that is talking about the big pink elephant in the room. The money wasted on war, the fact that our nation has been sold to international banks, and that the federal government is becoming a monster overtaking state autonomy... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As I've tried to explain, libertarianism includes a diverse set of beliefs and while there are common principles, libertarians are a diverse bunch. |
Faction 1: Republicans with commitment issues
Faction 2: Republicans who have discovered weed
Faction 3: Republicans who see a commie under every bed (JBS)
Faction 4: Ron Paul Republicans
Faction 5: Republicans who think Venusian lizards living under the New Mexico desert are trying to rule the world
Faction 6: ?
As I've tried to explain, minor quibbles between factions... I doubt a vegetarian considers Moslems and Jews as more virtuous than Christians because they won't eat pork. |
^ Bullshit
Liberals are happy with corruption if its government corruption, but not if its corporate corruption. But only corporate corruption, because most don't understand private equity or the like.
Yay. Strawmanning is fun.
----------------------
But seriously.
Libertarians are pro-market, pro-Federalism, pro-individual, and as suspicious of the gov't as of corporations.
We believe in the subjective theory of labor value, not the Marxist error that labor is worth whatever an academician might posit. That's because people bargain for their labor. Indeed, subjective theory of value aligns with the common law theory of contract.
We believe that direct democracy is dangerous, and that administration should be kept to the States, but individual rights protected by all levels of the gov't. If someone disputes the EPC and DPC within the 14th Amendment, they are probably a Republican, not a libertarian.
We believe that all things being equal, low taxation is preferable to high taxation. We don't believe in propping up businesses. We believe in experimentation and failure, two values liberals occasionally profess to believe in the public sphere, but when it comes to the economic sphere, become risk-adverse and protectionist. But experimentation in gov't should happen on the state level, where the laboratories of democracy reside.
Libertarians do believe in gov't regulation that provides information to consumers. Open markets require open information. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Libertarians do believe in gov't regulation that combats fraud and corruption. Libertarians do not take sides in an economic transaction: we do not favor workers over employers, do not favor employers over consumers, do not favor consumers over workers. We believe in an efficient and agreed upon arrangement between the parties. Libertarians believe in win-win outcomes. |
Oh, phooey!
Corruption is corruption; mostly it is corruption of moneyed interests screwing over the public interest. And who (with conservative help with the shovels) has the money?
You know as well as I do that 'pro-Federalism' is just newspeak for States Rights. So, bah! Libertarians have this fantasy that they can take a few hours off work and run up to the state government and 'have an effect' where they can't do that with the federal government. The fact is, putting the power at the state level just means making it cheaper for corporations to buy influence/control. They can always threaten to move to another state/country if the state government doesn't cave to their outrageous demands. If we're going to decentralize, I say we do it down to the county level and just admit that the ideal is a feudalistic system. I prefer honesty over the hypocrisy of states rights.
I would agree that libertarians are pro-individual if 'individual' means CEO. It didn't the last time I checked Merriam-Webster. Libertarians suspicious of industry? Please. How about Libertarians suspicious of commie plots to deprive entrepreneurs of a lunch in a Parisian cafe at the expense of anyone who tries to get a fair shake from industry?
Libertarians: property rights that we stole: HURRAY!. Everyone else: human rights...please don't stomp all over us, master.
Bargain for their labor? Please. The worker edges into the interview room hoping not to knock over the imported Venetian glassware, bows and scrapes hoping not to stumble over the master's pet peeves, and if he is lucky get a part-time job with no benefits while surrendering his civil rights. If he manages to get a job he has to be very careful not to cross the master or the master will call up his wholly-owned coterie of paid-for lawyers who will submerge his case in the 'legal' system until the guy dies.
Difference between Libertarians:
Mickey and Minnie Mouse went out foraging for some food in Mrs. Rand's garbage pile one day.
While Mickey was munching on some thrown-out lasagna, Minnie looked up and saw Mrs. Rand's Persian cat, Bermese cat, tabby cat, and alley cat running across the well-manacured lawn right at them.
"EEK!" shouted Minnie. "Run for your life!" She ducked into a Sunkist orange concentrate can where the cats couldn't get to her.
Poor Mickey, not being fast on the up-take, was surrounded by the four cats. Eventually, the Persian cat ate him, but Mickey was happy. He had always said he would much prefer being eaten by a Persian cat than a Burmese, tabby, or alley cat. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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It wasn't long ago that Ya-ta's posts made sense.
Federalism is newspeak? Are James Madison and Alexander Hamilton our Orwellian overlords from the past? Are you dependent on a unionized work force to get a job, Ya-ta? Do you consider yourself to be a slave to your employer?
The Federal government is owned by interest groups. The Big Oil representative from Texas votes for the Big Corn subsidies in Iowa, and the Big Corn representative from Iowa votes for the Big Oil subsidies in Texas. Both representatives go home bragging about the pork and complaining about how many subsidies other states get.
Decrease Federal obligations and taxes, let the States solve their problems in their own ways. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
It wasn't long ago that Ya-ta's posts made sense.
Federalism is newspeak? Are James Madison and Alexander Hamilton our Orwellian overlords from the past? Are you dependent on a unionized work force to get a job, Ya-ta? Do you consider yourself to be a slave to your employer?
The Federal government is owned by interest groups. The Big Oil representative from Texas votes for the Big Corn subsidies in Iowa, and the Big Corn representative from Iowa votes for the Big Oil subsidies in Texas. Both representatives go home bragging about the pork and complaining about how many subsidies other states get.
Decrease Federal obligations and taxes, let the States solve their problems in their own ways. |
Federalism is all too often just a code for states rights. As Kuros rightly pointed out on another thread, federalism has sometimes encouraged positive things, like progress on gay marriage. I would add that federalism allowed women in Wyoming the right to vote decades before it was adopted at the national level. I get that.
However, it has at least as often, and I would argue more often, been used as an excuse to restrict people's rights. Jim Crow is one example. A current attempt is Oklahoma passing a law 'guarding against the threat of sharia law'. Another is the wholesale attack in state legislatures against Roe vs Wade going on right now.
There is a lot to be said for the various states experimenting with policies and programs. But at some undefinable moment, the majority of the whole people must be listened to, and the minority must accept they lost the argument.
I'm familiar with the argument that governments closer to home are more responsive. I totally reject that argument. It may have made more sense when the media was also local and could keep an eye on state governments, but that is no longer true. It would be far cheaper for someone to bribe one governor and a handful of state legislators and then blackmail them by threatening to move to another state than it is to bribe Congress. [I'm also convinced that our greatest political problem today is the amount of money and how it can be used.]
Federalism is fine up to a point. I always try to keep in mind the opening of the Constitution: "We the people of the United States". I take it to mean that the founding generation consciously and deliberately chose to become one people.
It is the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few and the political power that that brings that is the greater danger, not the degree of concentration of political power in Washington. |
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weso1
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:37 am Post subject: |
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There used to be a difference in Libertarians and Conservatives.
But Ron Paul has ushered in a new era, where 99% of all so called "libertarians" essentially compromise on whatever social issues they once held. "Libertarians" don't believe in gay marriage, don't believe in a woman's choice, And the ones that do, are quick to look past all that to see which candidate has a bigger hard on for wall street. Which makes them worse than the others that are just pretending to be libertarians.
You never see libertarians attack conservatives. You never see libertarians show up to vote for a democrat. They will occasionally vote for the libertarian ticket if there is one that year, but every other time, they vote for the conservative.
Libertarians are to Conservatives as Greens are to Liberals. Just another faction within the group. Greens are liberals that really love hugging trees. Libertarians are conservatives that really love gold.
Ask yourself why every-single-one of the "libertarian" candidates in recent history were at the time Republicans or just recently "stopped" being Republicans.
Libertarians, Evangelicals, Wall Streeters - all just Republicans. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| weso1 wrote: |
There used to be a difference in Libertarians and Conservatives.
But Ron Paul has ushered in a new era, where 99% of all so called "libertarians" essentially compromise on whatever social issues they once held. "Libertarians" don't believe in gay marriage, don't believe in a woman's choice, And the ones that do, are quick to look past all that to see which candidate has a bigger hard on for wall street. Which makes them worse than the others that are just pretending to be libertarians.
You never see libertarians attack conservatives. You never see libertarians show up to vote for a democrat. They will occasionally vote for the libertarian ticket if there is one that year, but every other time, they vote for the conservative.
Libertarians are to Conservatives as Greens are to Liberals. Just another faction within the group. Greens are liberals that really love hugging trees. Libertarians are conservatives that really love gold.
Ask yourself why every-single-one of the "libertarian" candidates in recent history were at the time Republicans or just recently "stopped" being Republicans.
Libertarians, Evangelicals, Wall Streeters - all just Republicans. |
Nice ramble of pulling stuff out of thin air (libertarians compromising on social issues? Ok, provide an example) and making obvious statements (libertarians and Republicans agree on some issues as do greens and democrats, wow!). |
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weso1
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
There used to be a difference in Libertarians and Conservatives.
But Ron Paul has ushered in a new era, where 99% of all so called "libertarians" essentially compromise on whatever social issues they once held. "Libertarians" don't believe in gay marriage, don't believe in a woman's choice, And the ones that do, are quick to look past all that to see which candidate has a bigger hard on for wall street. Which makes them worse than the others that are just pretending to be libertarians.
You never see libertarians attack conservatives. You never see libertarians show up to vote for a democrat. They will occasionally vote for the libertarian ticket if there is one that year, but every other time, they vote for the conservative.
Libertarians are to Conservatives as Greens are to Liberals. Just another faction within the group. Greens are liberals that really love hugging trees. Libertarians are conservatives that really love gold.
Ask yourself why every-single-one of the "libertarian" candidates in recent history were at the time Republicans or just recently "stopped" being Republicans.
Libertarians, Evangelicals, Wall Streeters - all just Republicans. |
Nice ramble of pulling stuff out of thin air (libertarians compromising on social issues? Ok, provide an example) and making obvious statements (libertarians and Republicans agree on some issues as do greens and democrats, wow!). |
Show me a libertarian that voted for a democrat and prove me wrong. |
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