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The Libyan War
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visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:24 am Post subject:

cwflaneur wrote:

I'll just say that I'm very glad Libya has a bright future ahead of it

You're very glad that Libya is now under the control of Al Qaeda?? Wow... Shocked

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:28 am Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

Leon, I don't have time to look through all those sources. But I do note that you swallow it all unquestioningly, having admitted you don't take the time to look through them all yourself. So basically you just accept what the government and mainstream says and take their word for it? Even though they've been caught lying too many times to count?

What are the odds that wikipedia would provide links to sources that contradicted any of those you listed? How can you come to any conclusions having not looked at both sides of the debate?

This stuff I know. This is old news. I don't have time to go through the new stuff that's happening now, I can't keep up with stuff like this like I used to when I was a student. This is all from the 80's. In college I majored in International Relations and international security was my concentration. We spent time on Libya, the green book, and his sponsorship of terrorism. That he sponsored terrorism on a massive level isn't really debated. Do some research into what he was doing in the '80s and I very much doubt you'll see too many sources that disagree with what I posted.

cwflaneur

Joined: 04 Aug 2009

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:00 am Post subject:

Quote:

I asked for evidence and proof showing "vast popular will to oust Gaddafi", not emotion-driven platitudes.

How about the uprising itself? Thousands of Libyans left their homes and jobs to fight Gaddafi's army. It's the most unambiguous statement of opposition that it would be possible to make. Are we even talking about the same country? If you were thinking Morocco was having a revolution and got its name mixed up with Libya's, someone had a laugh on you.

Quote:

You're very glad that Libya is now under the control of Al Qaeda?? Wow...

Except that it isn't. We know that one person in power in Libya, the commander in Tripoli, is/was a member of the LIFG. The members of the NTC are by all accounts a group of secular and civilised men whose ranks include human rights lawyers. There is even (gasp) a woman. That's why it's such news: one Islamist in power. Too bad.

Sigh. This will be my last contribution here... sorry about your man Muammar, he did have great dress sense.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:41 am Post subject:

cwflaneur wrote:

Quote:

I asked for evidence and proof showing "vast popular will to oust Gaddafi", not emotion-driven platitudes.

Libya has around 6 million people. There were maybe 2000 thousand protesting in Benghazi around the time NATO was thinking of intervening. How does a few thousand (many of whom were extremists) out of 6 million (ie. less than 1%) amount to "vast popular support"? Please, do explain...

Quote:

You're very glad that Libya is now under the control of Al Qaeda?? Wow...

Except that it isn't. We know that one person in power in Libya, the commander in Tripoli, is/was a member of the LIFG.

So you even admit that an Al Qaeda member is controlling the capital city and you're happy about?? And "hopeful for the future"? Once again: wow.

Quote:

Sigh. This will be my last contribution here

I don't blame you. Take some time to enlighten yourself a bit first.

cwflaneur

Joined: 04 Aug 2009

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:22 am Post subject:

This can just be regarded as part of my previous point: For comparison, Egypt has a population of 80 MILLION. That's 13 times the population of Libya. Of course their protests were bigger, Einstein. There are between 30,000 - 40,000 Libyans on the NTC side who fought Gaddafi. They started with only 1,000 of them as trained soldiers - because they were/are a volunteer army - not the paid thugs of a dictator. You would have had Libyans instead continue going to protests and have themselves shot? As if Gaddafi was going to lend a soft ear to unarmed civilians chanting against him in public... he made it clear right from the start how he dealt with such things. Slightly sorry to see such a dramatic James Bond baddie go, though. The world will be less interesting (but happier) without him.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:30 am Post subject:

Quote:

More gibberish. Libya is ranked as having a "high HDI". Look it up. Its HDI is ever higher than several European countries (as already stated, and ignored by you). What say you?

Is everything always about money with you?

You come across as so blinded by your hatred of the American government that you don't seem to be able to see that Libyans maybe resented having friends and relatives hauled off to jail, never to be seen again, when they expressed unpopular views. Libyans may well be human and resent having had their lives limited by a brutal dictator for 42 years.

That shouldn't be that much of a stretch for someone with your expressed views on government. Maybe Libyans are libertarians. Confused

Anyway, the issue is getting close to being resolved if AP's most recent report is true:
TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) � Libya's former rebels have surrounded the ousted dictator Moammar Gadhafi, and it is only a matter of time until he is captured or killed, a spokesman for Tripoli's new military council said Wednesday.

Anis Sharif would not say where Gadhafi had been found, but said he was still in Libya and had been tracked using high technology and human intelligence. Gadhafi is trapped within a 40-mile- (60 kilometer-) radius area surrounded by rebels, he said.

"He can't get out," said Sharif, who added the former rebels are preparing to either detain him or kill him.

Locating Gadhafi would help seal the new rulers' hold on the country. The announcement after convoys of Gadhafi loyalists, including his security chief, fled across the Sahara into Niger in a move that Libya's former rebels hoped could help lead to the surrender of his last strongholds.

Some former rebels depicted the flight to Niger as a major exodus of Gadhafi's most hardcore backers. But confirmed information on the number and identity of those leaving was scarce given the vast swath of desert � over 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometers) � between populated areas on the two sides of the border.

http://news.yahoo.com/former-rebels-gadhafi-surrounded-092634853.html

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri

Joined: 09 Aug 2011

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:46 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Now are they great, if the past is a fair indication no. They are a problemsome group, and not ideal to be in power.

Who are you to even be opining about who should be in power in a country on the other side of the world that has never attacked us?

AP wrote:

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) � Libya's former rebels have surrounded the ousted dictator Moammar Gadhafi, and it is only a matter of time until he is captured or killed, a spokesman for Tripoli's new military council said Wednesday.

Make sure you execute him as soon as you find him. No need for a messy, prolonged trial in which some inconvenient truths may come out. (Right, OBL?)

Last edited by Ineverlie&I'malwaysri on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:40 am Post subject:

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote:

Leon wrote:

Now are they great, if the past is a fair indication no. They are a problemsome group, and not ideal to be in power.

Who are you to even be opining about who should be in power in a country on the other side of the world that has never attacked us?

Libya has participated in terror activities in the 1980's that killed American citizens, and financed many groups that are hostile to the united states, and trained groups that are hostile to our allies. So yes they have attacked us, but that is besides the point. Who the hell are you to opine about anything? Isn't that what message boards are for? In a globalized world who's in charge of other countries effects everybody. In a thread all about Libya this is the comment you choose to attack? Crazy.

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri

Joined: 09 Aug 2011

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:49 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote:

Leon wrote:

Now are they great, if the past is a fair indication no. They are a problemsome group, and not ideal to be in power.

Who are you to even be opining about who should be in power in a country on the other side of the world that has never attacked us?

Where is your evidence that they "financed many groups that are hostile to the united states"? And your definition of "attacked us" is that they "trained groups that are hostile to our allies"? HAHAHAHAHA! Laughing

Thank you for showing us the state of your reality testing.

I am American so I get to opine about things directly affecting her. I am a teacher so I get to opine about education, etc. See how that works?

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:57 am Post subject:

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote:

Leon wrote:

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote:

Leon wrote:

Now are they great, if the past is a fair indication no. They are a problemsome group, and not ideal to be in power.

Who are you to even be opining about who should be in power in a country on the other side of the world that has never attacked us?

Do you know anything about Libya? Libya was the biggest state sponsor of terrorism in the world in the 80's and early 90's. Libya was responsible for the bombing of Pan Am flight 103, in which 189 Americans were killed. Libya was also responsible for bombing a night club in Germany that was a known hangout for U.S. soldiers. It provided arms for the I.R.A, and many other groups hostile to us. Yes I consider that an attack. Learn history before you talk. You talk about a lot more than America and education, I hope you are directly involved in everything you talk about...

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:54 am Post subject:

cwflaneur wrote:

This can just be regarded as part of my previous point:

For comparison, Egypt has a population of 80 MILLION. That's 13 times the population of Libya. Of course their protests were bigger, Einstein.

Einstein? Who brought him up? Or your non-point about the population of Egypt, for that matter...

Quote:

There are between 30,000 - 40,000 Libyans on the NTC side who fought Gaddafi.

What's your source for this number? I googled it and it yielded nothing.

Quote:

They started with only 1,000 of them as trained soldiers - because they were/are a volunteer army - not the paid thugs of a dictator.

That number sounds more like it. So let's see... 1000 divided by 6 million equals: 0.000167% of the population. Is that the "vast number" you mentioned earlier who were willing Gaddafi's downfall? And how many of those just over than a ten thousandth of a percent were Al Qaeda? Please, do elaborate some more...

Quote:

You would have had Libyans instead continue going to protests and have themselves shot? As if Gaddafi was going to lend a soft ear to unarmed civilians chanting against him in public... he made it clear right from the start how he dealt with such things.

Pure speculation on your part. You're making the claim that Gaddafi would have started mowing down unarmed protesters, even though you have nothing whatsoever to back that up.

Quote:

Slightly sorry to see such a dramatic James Bond baddie go, though. The world will be less interesting (but happier) without him.

Yes, so much happier with his Al Qaeda replacements ruling over a bombed out country. Hip hip hooray!

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:14 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

More gibberish. Libya is ranked as having a "high HDI". Look it up. Its HDI is ever higher than several European countries (as already stated, and ignored by you). What say you?

Is everything always about money with you?

Asks the armchair pundit sitting on his butt, typing on his computer in the comfort of his home, probably with a full belly, and sipping on a glass of wine without a real care in the world.

Since you've never had to face the prospect of your country being blown to hell by foreign air strikes I doubt you'll ever have to worry about such things. How easy it must be for someone as smug and entitled as yourself to just shrug off the fact that Libya will go from being a highly developed country to just another bombed out hell hole run by thugs. Who cares! As long as Gaddafi is gone, anything else goes! War is fun, and glamorous! It lets ya-ta feel like he's doing good in the world! Hypocrisy ain't even a thing.

Quote:

You come across as so blinded by your hatred of the American government that you don't seem to be able to see that Libyans maybe resented having friends and relatives hauled off to jail, never to be seen again, when they expressed unpopular views. Libyans may well be human and resent having had their lives limited by a brutal dictator for 42 years.

Right, so your solution is to bomb their country and stick a bunch of Islamist terrorists into power? Who asked you? How many Libyans were in favor of this war? Do you even have an inkling of an idea? I suppose you're just content with pretending you know what Libyans want, or what's best for them. It's so much easier than having to put yourself in their shoes.

Quote:

That shouldn't be that much of a stretch for someone with your expressed views on government. Maybe Libyans are libertarians. Confused

Or maybe Libyans just want to be left alone. Maybe they don't want or need NATO to come in and bomb their country and install Al Qaeda terrorists into power, or have their oil robbed from them by Western interests.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:39 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Do you know anything about Libya? Libya was the biggest state sponsor of terrorism in the world in the 80's and early 90's.

Wrong. That would be the United States.

Quote:

Libya was responsible for the bombing of Pan Am flight 103,

Allegedly.

Quote:

Libya was also responsible for bombing a night club in Germany that was a known hangout for U.S. soldiers.

Allegedly.

Quote:

It provided arms for the I.R.A, and many other groups hostile to us. Yes I consider that an attack.

Following this logic, pretty much every country on earth that has fought a war in the last century would have reason to consider it "an attack" by the US and other Western countries, since we have dealt weapons all over the world, to friend and foe alike. Hell, the US even gave weapons technology to the Soviets...

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:44 am Post subject:

Really nice personal experience on CNN today, really emotional. Return to Libya: http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2011/09/07/inside-middle-east-maziq-libya-return.cnn?iref=allsearch

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri

Joined: 09 Aug 2011

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:26 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote:

I am American so I get to opine about things directly affecting her. I am a teacher so I get to opine about education, etc. See how that works?

And you are claiming to know anything about Libya? ROFLMAO! Laughing

Jailed for life - but is this man really guilty of killing 270?

Quote:

After conducting an exhaustive three-year review of the case, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission reported in June 2007 there may have been a miscarriage of justice in Megrahi's case.

This conviction has been called into question right from the start. This article was written more than 8 years ago:

Flight from the truth

bacasper wrote:

Megrahi is not only not guilty, there is NO evidence linking him to the crime.

Why was Pam Am 103 shot down? And why did Libya take the rap for it? According to MP for Lockerbie Tam Danyell is was a "business deal"; and he's spot on. In a tit-for-tat deal Libya claimed responsibility and had three UN sanctions against it removed.

The air embargo against Libya was crippling the economy and at the time there was a huge shortage of polio vaccinations. Anyone who traded with Libya would have had their assets frozen. Libya has the 6th largest reserve of "good" oil reserves, the king which meant it was very cheap to extract and process but lack of investment was crippling it's economy. After they took the rap and had the sanctions removes huge investment flooded in.

A company called "Interforce", which consists of ex-intelligence officers from the CIA, Mossad etc. released a report of their findings, and it'll blow you away:

It concluded that Eight CIA officers were on board that day who were involved in directing drug traffic involving one "Ghazer" (wrong spelling) who was a DEA officer. the DEA and the CIA had been using Pan Am flights for years to courier hard drugs, heroin, and narcotics which were distributed by the CIA across the US in Detroit, St. Louis, LA and New York.

The plane was blown up because the agents were coming back to the US to blow the cover on that operation, pissed off because they were told it would be escalated.

In Jan 1990 the Toronto Star had an article saying that Eight CIA operatives were on the flight led by Major General Charles Dennis Mckee.

A secret FBI field report revealed there was no suitcase originating in Malta where the accused Libyans allegedly travelled through. Instead it was a CIA front company (think Visor Consultants).

Chairman of Pam Am Thomas Planket was quoted as saying something along the lines of "I thought I was running a airline, not a drug running courier service". This was put forward by Congressman Thomas Trafficante.

Funds from the drug running service came to about $5 billion annually and was integrated with US banking system processed through Morgan Stanley and all the other major banks.

For the complete story with documentation, listen to program 030902 or 090825 at http://takingaimradio.com/shows/audio.html.

The Scottish Sunday Express wrote:

However, we can reveal that he has connections to at least two international terrorists and a Palestinian terror group, as well as links to the US intelligence services.

Lockerbie: Megrahi was framed

Most pertinently, jodemas2 wrote:

Lockerbie Lies

If anyone, including those lazy `journalists` think that Libya has anything at all to do with the Lockerbie bombing and terrorism, you had better view this. Only after you have viewed this, can you have any credibility to even mention the word `Lockerbie.`

This article The trial of the "Lockerbie bomber" was worse than a travesty of justice: Evidence that never came to court proves his innocence is very refreshing. Up to today, I still see Libya being blamed for Lockerbie. Imagine being accused of murder, being proven not guilty and having your neighbors (who haven't followed the trial) still calling you a murderer. Most people never bothered with the details and recycled old propaganda. Very frustrating for the innocents!

View the video for an overview, to understand why Libya is not guilty of the Lockerbie PanAm 103 bombing:]Lockerbie Lies[/url]

If anyone, including those lazy `journalists` think that Libya has anything at all to do with the Lockerbie bombing and terrorism, you had better view this. Only after you have viewed this, can you have any credibility to even mention the word `Lockerbie`

This article The trial of the "Lockerbie bomber" was worse than a travesty of justice: Evidence that never came to court proves his innocence is very refreshing. Up to today, I still see Libya being blamed for Lockerbie. Imagine being accused of murder, being proven not guilty and having your neighbors (who haven't followed the trial) still calling you a murderer. Most people never bothered with the details and recycled old propaganda. Very frustrating for the innocents!

View the video for an overview, to understand why Libya is not guilty of the Lockerbie PanAm 103 bombing:

Now what were you saying?

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