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9/11 AnniversaryAmerican flag burning in London by Islamists
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
@Kimbop

You are lolling me after that rant about people voting for communism and that the reason the birth rate is coming down is because we are lazy.
Nothing to do with a rise in living standards, better contraception emancipation of women it�s because we are too lazy to have sex.

Also the closest thing the country has had to Communism was the 1983 Labour Party manifesto and that was soundly defeated. To infer that any government in that last 30 years has been anything close to socialist let alone communist is amusing.

@visitorq

You are right governments don�t care, but the people do and that�s why no party could win an election on the premise of dismantling the welfare state. Although the current lot are testing that theory.

I think we are in agreement that what the people get is meager; therefore we should expand the welfare state. As for the looting comment yeah I agree if the looting was even a little political they would have been met with more force.


How much more welfare do you reckon would be required to overcome the governmental oppression suffered by these poor folks? Would a few hundred quid entice them to put down their "Death to the West" signs?
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@caniff

I think we have our wires crossed, I was speaking generally.

As for the guys protesting, they are inconsequential deluded fanatics, there is not really anything more you can say about them.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
@visitorq

You are right governments don�t care, but the people do and that�s why no party could win an election on the premise of dismantling the welfare state. Although the current lot are testing that theory.

It makes little difference - the government just tells the rabble what they want to hear and the people happily vote them in. Once in power, the corruption and looting/raping of the economy continues on as usual. The general public loves being lied to and abused by smooth talking politicians, there is no other explanation.

On the other hand, people like Ron Paul who campaign on the premise of dismantling the corporate welfare state (and hopefully the welfare in general as an afterthought) are receiving more support than ever. Many people are waking up.

Quote:
I think we are in agreement that what the people get is meager; therefore we should expand the welfare state.

No, we are not in agreement on this point. It's not about giving people more or less chickenfeed to sit around on their hind ends. It's about giving them real opportunities and incentives to work. Not getting a welfare check in the mail each month is a very good incentive to work. On the other hand, government regulation virtually guarantees high unemployment, while taxation and inflation keeps the poor from escaping their cycle of poverty.

The free market route to prosperity can only work if the government stops interfering with the economy and destroying opportunities for millions of people.

Quote:
As for the looting comment yeah I agree if the looting was even a little political they would have been met with more force.

On this point we do agree.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with you up to a point when talking about the failings and unaccountability of the elite, however, I don�t see how you can claim government is the problem and free market capitalism is the cure.

If the financial crisis of 2007 taught us anything it was that a lack of regulation and the unquenchable greed of the private sector led to an unsustainable situation.

Also the let�s be clear we do not live in a meritocracy, in a free market capitalist system there will be winners and losers and as with any competition there are far more losers than there are winners. Without government and welfare who will provide for those that are not successful? Will it simply be a case of hoping that the winners are caring enough to provide charity?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
I don�t see how you can claim government is the problem and free market capitalism is the cure.

How do you not see this? Go down the list - the government is the problem in pretty much every case. Seriously

Quote:
If the financial crisis of 2007 taught us anything it was that a lack of regulation and the unquenchable greed of the private sector led to an unsustainable situation.

What?? That is not the private sector - those banks have a monopoly on the creation of money, because of the government. They are a government backed monopoly/cartel. It's called central banking. Do you know how that works?

Moreover, in a free market those zombie banks would have gone bankrupt and bit the dust (as they should have). Instead the government signed us on for untold trillions - far more money than would have even been required to simply pay off all the mortgages in the subprime debacle.

Quote:
Also the let�s be clear we do not live in a meritocracy, in a free market capitalist system there will be winners and losers and as with any competition there are far more losers than there are winners.

In a free market system everyone who is willing to help and meet the demands others (which are endless) wins. In reality, this means the middle class thrives, the gap between the richest and poorest shrinks, and the poor become a rarity (things are so plentiful and cheap, and employment so readily available, that you'd practically have to go out of your way to be poor).

Quote:
Without government and welfare who will provide for those that are not successful? Will it simply be a case of hoping that the winners are caring enough to provide charity?

1) Nobody is entitled to tax payer money as welfare - anymore than I am entitled to stick my hand in your pocket and help myself to your money (whether I "need" it or not).

2) The government actually destroys immense numbers of jobs and opportunities, erodes our standard of living, steals our purchasing power through inflation, and kills competition in the market, all in the name of "helping you". This while self-entitled, parasitic government bureaucrats live better, work less, and make more money than the rest of the common public, paid for with your tax dollars (unless you yourself are a bureaucrat, in which case you pay zero taxes).

3) In a free market system, people help themselves. Families and communities also help each other, voluntarily. Doctors and other professionals do pro bono work. Private charities collect voluntary donations (rather than the government stealing our money through the thread of violence).
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could they please just go back to thier Islamist paradise somewhere in the middle east.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Islam will dominate the world"
I applaud their desire to speak freely and assemble peacefully. They need a new PR guy though.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
"Islam will dominate the world"
I applaud their desire to speak freely and assemble peacefully. They need a new PR guy though.


????????
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say restrict immigration, if you're going to accept immigrants from certain countries, there must be a rigorous process, they should focus on people with certain qualifications as they do in Canada. Those who don't like the larger population shoud not come. If I were a fascist, and I am not I would strip someone who carries a sign "shariah" for America to have their citizenship taken from them. These are mostly South Asians, and South Asian Pakistanis tend to have a large zealous population. I accept immigration from there, but not without properly scrutinizing the immigrants and not having just an open-door policy, and I know regular Muslims I've met don't want those type of people, either. Their views are protected under democracies, so you need to discourage their exact type from immigrating. I mean if someone from say Pakistan or Egypt or wherever doesn't appear like he would integrate well, don't bring him in, but if someone from there appeas like he would, then it's a different story. I wouldn't have let people who looked extreme in, and I've said such things 20 years ago.
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
I say restrict immigration, if you're going to accept immigrants from certain countries, there must be a rigorous process, they should focus on people with certain qualifications as they do in Canada. Those who don't like the larger population should not come. If I were a fascist, and I am not I would strip someone who carries a sign "shariah" for America to have their citizenship taken from them. These are mostly South Asians, and South Asian Pakistanis tend to have a large zealous population. I accept immigration from there, but not without properly scrutinizing the immigrants and not having just an open-door policy, and I know regular Muslims I've met don't want those type of people, either. Their views are protected under democracies, so you need to discourage their exact type from immigrating. I mean if someone from say Pakistan or Egypt or wherever doesn't appear like he would integrate well, don't bring him in, but if someone from there appear like he would, then it's a different story. I wouldn't have let people who looked extreme in, and I've said such things 20 years ago.


Canada? The country that lets in pretty much anyone so as long as they have post secondary education? Canada pretty much has open borders. The government needs people to immigrate to offset the low birth rate and number of people leaving the country each year because there isn't much opportunity.

I think Australia is a better example of a country with strict immigration laws that only let people in with specific skills that are actually in demand. There are obviously people that still get in by seeking asylum or by other means but overall it is difficult to get in compared to other Western countries.
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johnnyenglishteacher2



Joined: 03 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
I say restrict immigration, if you're going to accept immigrants from certain countries, there must be a rigorous process, they should focus on people with certain qualifications as they do in Canada.


It's more difficult for EU countries to police their borders than the USA and Canada, which have oceans between them and Africa and Asia.

Adventurer wrote:
I mean if someone from say Pakistan or Egypt or wherever doesn't appear like he would integrate well, don't bring him in, but if someone from there appeas like he would, then it's a different story. I wouldn't have let people who looked extreme in, and I've said such things 20 years ago.


It's often the sons or grandsons of the immigrants who are the extremists. Witness the UK. We've had Muslim mass immigration into our country since the 1940s and it wasn't until 2005 that we had an Islamic terrorist attack on our soil.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
comm wrote:
"Islam will dominate the world"
I applaud their desire to speak freely and assemble peacefully. They need a new PR guy though.


????????


That's what their sign said. If that's what they want, they'd be more likely to get it if they didn't put it on their sign. Hence, they need a new public relations guy.
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: 9/11 AnniversaryAmerican flag burning in London by Islam Reply with quote

I remember someone on Radio 4 a while back describing Christianity as being like a public swimming pool, that all the noise is at the shallow end. I�m not a Christian but I like the analogy and I certainly think it applies here, to these vile people. If you actually look they are few more than a handful of unemployed losers, and every demo they do consists of the same individuals and their numbers never get any bigger. Unfortunately their message is so appalling that they have done little more than to give justification to those who would demonize the entire Muslim community, and give rise to the EDF who are no more than a crowd of thugs.

This crowd were actually demonstrating at large against the intervention in Libya, so they must have been positively writhing in their dish-dashes to see David Cameron�s jubilant reception in Benghazi.

All that said, someone mentioned the large scale immigration of migrant workers from the Indian sub-continent during the sixties, and it does demonstrate something deeply dysfunctional in the Pakistani community, that children and grandchildren of the same generation of migrants from India are by and large now doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, big business people and generally very solid contributors to the British economy while great swathes of the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities have not moved on at all.

I have no idea why so many of them chose not to take the opportunities living in Britain has offered over the years, but now that they have made those sad choices their last refuge from their own ineptitude is to hide behind Islam. How very convenient.
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