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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: Male and Female - what are the current stats? |
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| Someone posted census figures for foreign english teachers on this board a while back from, I think, 2008. Those figures demonstrated many more male teachers than female in country. Lately, some posters take every opportunity available to rant about "female only" job postings. Is it still the case that there are many more males than females teaching in Korea now, and does anyone know where to locate the most recent stats or breakdown? Thanks |
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AlastairKirby
Joined: 29 Aug 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Male and Female - what are the current stats? |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
| Someone posted census figures for foreign english teachers on this board a while back from, I think, 2008. Those figures demonstrated many more male teachers than female in country. Lately, some posters take every opportunity available to rant about "female only" job postings. Is it still the case that there are many more males than females teaching in Korea now, and does anyone know where to locate the most recent stats or breakdown? Thanks |
Citation needed.
Is this relevant to your question even?
As a white man it is very rich for me to claim discrimination. But I did lose out on a job once to a woman. The director of English offered me a job and sent me a contract. The next day I was told the principal wanted a woman instead.
It is the system in this country and you have to accept it. I'm not bitter about it. But it is a reality that people are missing out on jobs because they are not female. I can't even imagine what it must be like to be black or a middle aged person.
Discrimination does happen here. Discrimination based on appearances and not qualifications is wrong.
You could have said: "I have noticed more and more people complaining about 'female only' job listings'. But the way you phrased it seemed very flippant.
Some people are very sincere about wanting to come and teach here. I have 3 years experience in Korea. I have friends who have got married and had children here. I have some very close friends. I am not even in Korea and I refer to it as 'here'. I like teaching. I came back to do a CELTA and I want to put what I learned into practice. I want to to go back to Korea and teach.
There's nothing wrong with asking about the number of male and female teachers but why exactly did you include this sentence? It seems very loaded. What point where you trying to make? Is the fact the people are getting rightfully indignant a nuisance to you? Does it ruin your immersion? |
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rayray123
Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Male and Female - what are the current stats? |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
| Someone posted census figures for foreign english teachers on this board a while back from, I think, 2008. Those figures demonstrated many more male teachers than female in country. Lately, some posters take every opportunity available to rant about "female only" job postings. Is it still the case that there are many more males than females teaching in Korea now, and does anyone know where to locate the most recent stats or breakdown? Thanks |
hmm... Did I rant? I don't think I did. But I have been told several times a school would prefer a female teacher. I just wish it was more out in the open from the beginning that they want a woman. Not after I have applied. Some recruiters list the positions stating that a school wants a female. Most do not, even though I think they may know the school wants a female. I just don't want to waste my time applying for positions where I will not even be considered.
I don't know about the statistics, but I like statistics, so I would like to see them too. |
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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| There's a ton of all sorts of discrimination in Korean ESL hiring. Whether it's "wrong" has no bearing. There are currently job listings on Dave's for Korea that specify female only AND male only. It's been this way for the entire 5 years I've been in Korea. I'm very interested in the current numbers of males and females working in Korean ESL from other countries - what the percentages are. I'm not very interested in matching wits with someone who doesn't know me, and who couldn't be more misguided in his assertions about me or my original post. Get some cheese to go with that whine, fella. Anybody know the numbers? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Males outnumber females by about 10-1.
It varies a bit depending on where they are coming from and visa class (E1 and E2) from at close as 4-1 and as high as 15-1.
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Women can make a ton of money in the U.S. as waitresses. Men cannot. (95% of servers are female). Recent statistics show women under 30 in the U.S. are making more money than men under 30 (even not counting all this unclaimed money made at restaurants and bars).
In both the West and in Korea (in the ESL market), women can make more money for less work. They are given preferential treatment. (If you don't believe me, check the stats showing a lower unemployment rate for women than for men.)
Great job opportunities for women in the West (especially for women who are attractive) mean fewer women will be coming to South Korea out of desperation and lack of options. |
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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks, Ttompatz. I appreciate information - you're always a great source. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Males outnumber females by about 10-1.
It varies a bit depending on where they are coming from and visa class (E1 and E2) from at close as 4-1 and as high as 15-1.
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Yeah, Seoul definitely has a higher proportion of women than elsewhere, and likely Busan does as well. Outside of Seoul I've noticed that the proportion of women seems to go down the farther you get from Seoul (something of a reflection of Cohiba's inane rule, I suspect). |
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FastForward
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Male and Female - what are the current stats? |
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[/quote]hmm... Did I rant? I don't think I did. But I have been told several times a school would prefer a female teacher. I just wish it was more out in the open from the beginning that they want a woman. Not after I have applied. Some recruiters list the positions stating that a school wants a female. Most do not, even though I think they may know the school wants a female. I just don't want to waste my time applying for positions where I will not even be considered.
I don't know about the statistics, but I like statistics, so I would like to see them too.[/quote]
This is what makes me angry....Why did you waste my time with an interview, if you were looking for a female...You can clearly see that I was a male in my picture! Just put that on your job listing and don't interview a male if you are not going to hire them. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The director of English offered me a job and sent me a contract. The next day I was told the principal wanted a woman instead. |
But your resume would say you are male. Any application would typically ask for gender. The tone of your voice would probably indicate you are male. Unless there is some plausible way to confuse you with a woman, you were rejected for reasons other than gender.
Gender might be a problem to a certain degree, but the male/female scenario has its limits. This is how offers can be made like they are cars on a lot:
Recruiter: Yea, what jobs do you want?
You: I would like to work with middle school students.
Recruiter: Oh ok, let me see which ones we have (knowing he has none, but just one elementary school position). We have 3 job offers, 2 are middle school as you requested and 1 elementary school.
You: Then I want one of the 2 middle school positions. Which one is closest to my desired location?
Recruiter: Middle school 2. I will call them and set up an interview. (Next day), oh I am sorry, that school already found a teacher and I talked with middle school 1. They only want a female teacher. How about this elementary school position?
This is exactly how it went down with me. I took the elementary school position and it was actually pretty good. Not because of the recruiter and their tactics, but because the first head English teacher was nice and she helped my co-teacher with school conflicts before and after she left. The second one replacing her didn't know what we had agreed to and defaulted back to a crappy public school schedule. We had to get the school to reschedule things.
Anyway, the point is, female only is a card recruiters will use to find another person or stick you with a different school. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Is the fact the people are getting rightfully indignant a nuisance to you? |
Cutting in line at the store is rightfully indignant.
Yelling when you could have walked over is indignant.
Not closing your mouth when you chew could be indignant.
This "unfair treatment" part of the definition is also loaded. It is as if we are in need of being treated.
I don't believe this was the line of thinking the original poster was implying. The point is a job offer was made, and if we are going to promote equality, we should promote equality. We shouldn't cover up inequality with blatant disregard for selective hiring (putting only female ads up) or play games like the recruiter situation I described to hide the same prejudice.
Two wrongs don't make a right. If it is wrong not to hire a person based on their skin color, then that in itself is wrong. You can't dilute it by also not hiring a person based on gender. |
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ATM SPIDERTAO
Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Location: seoul, south korea
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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uhhh if i ran my own business
i would like to hire the race and gender of people i wanted
ESPECIALLY if i were to run a school
cuz attractive, young white women would make the money come FLOWIN' IN!!!
also, if you were a korean mother. would you rather send your children to a chinese man to learn chinese or a white man?
THINK ABOUT THAT
i'm chinese btw... and i'm pretty sure i won't be able to find a job teaching english in korea afterwards now... too many experienced teachers who are actually WHITE looking instead of korean looking like me =( |
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AlastairKirby
Joined: 29 Aug 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
| There's a ton of all sorts of discrimination in Korean ESL hiring. Whether it's "wrong" has no bearing. There are currently job listings on Dave's for Korea that specify female only AND male only. It's been this way for the entire 5 years I've been in Korea. I'm very interested in the current numbers of males and females working in Korean ESL from other countries - what the percentages are. I'm not very interested in matching wits with someone who doesn't know me, and who couldn't be more misguided in his assertions about me or my original post. Get some cheese to go with that whine, fella. Anybody know the numbers? |
You didn't answer my question. Why did you include that sentence? What purpose did it serve.
There are maybe two threads on the front page about the difficult job market. I am struggling to think about posts whinging about women getting the jobs.
It is a frustrating part of looking for work that employers can brazenly ask for 'female teachers only'. But that is the system here. If I were that upset I would look for work elsewhere. I'm not whinging or getting bitter about it.
But you can't act like you were just asking a question when you included that sentence.
I would hardly say that the situation on Dave's is people complaining at every available opportunity. That is what I took issue with. Ask a simple question in future and do so without any need to have a dig at people. I just thought it was completely unnecessary. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| i would like to hire the race and gender of people i wanted |
I didn't post that employers shouldn't, I only labeled it a wrong. It is wrong to drink, it is wrong to smoke, it is wrong to ask your Korean girlfriend to stop acting like a 10 year old girl living with her mom and dad still at the age of 35.
However, we still pick and choose our wrongs and live with them. I am merely pointing out that in this case of white female teachers, it is an inflated perspective. One, they are white as you have noted. Second, they are female. This makes it easier to falsely assume that you have less chance than you actually do now on getting a job.
Let me go over that one more time. Let's say a white female has 75% chance, white male 40%, and everyone else 30% or less. You come along and say, "Angst angst angst, I have won't be hired, 0%". I am telling you that is not true. You have 10-20%. You are not weighing the influence of white females and how recruiters will use that to simply fill a position. It has nothing to do with gender or race. The recruiter has a list of schools they need filled, and they want you to fill one of them, not the ones you want to fill.
I see blacks getting jobs. A black woman replaced me. I see Asian people hired. It's not as often, but it still happens. |
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AlastairKirby
Joined: 29 Aug 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'm worried about this turning into a whinging about women thread.
I'm not upset about women getting preferential treatment in the job market. As a white man I understand I get positive discrimination in Asia. So it's a bit rich for me to complain about the system once it stops benefiting me. It's the system here. Anyway, the real reason people are losing out on jobs is not because of gender or race but more to do with experience. Newbies are cheaper. Also this is the worst time of the year to be searching.
Anyone who has been unemployed and job searching will know how frustrating it can be.
I was too sensitive about the original post. But there was no need for the flippancy. Ask an honest question. Don't load it with 'people complaining at every available opportunity'. There are maybe two threads on the job market and the general mood seems to be disappointment. People who sincerely want to go back to Korea but for whatever reason can't right now. Not many whackos shouting 'they took our jobs!' |
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