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L_orna
Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Ireland
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 Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: So we're leaving our hagwon... |
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Hey all...
So I have posted on this site several times over the last while asking for advice about leaving a hagwon..
After much thought, we went to our boss and said we wanted to 'move on' and that we were willing to give 30 days notice (the labour board said this was the norm)
Naturally, our boss was unimpressed. He remained civil about it, but naturally wanted to know why. We initially witheld how we REALLY felt and said we just wanted to be with our friends in Seoul.
To cut a long story short , they have held onto money belong to us without warning (this happened in our first paycheque) so we ended up bringing this up with him.
He said it will take up to 3 months (90 days) before we can leave and that was there any possible way of us staying.
He said it will not look good with immigration if we want to move to Seoul because we are leaving so early. (We will be at the school over four months)
I can understand his upset, but can they honestly expect us to stay for 90 days?
We are considering doing a run after we get paid (3 weeks time)
Is this the best solution? We are thinking another country is the best thing to do. I really dont wanna do a midnight run, but I dont want to have to work here for 90 more days...
Can they make us do that? |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Your school can't MAKE you do anything -- they can ask, insist, demand, require, cajole, threaten, persuade, or otherwise try to get you to go along with things, but none of it has any real teeth, unless you follow the laws or some code of honor/conduct.
You gave 30 days' notice. Presuming that you show up to work and perform your duties up to the required standard, then you will have done everything you need to do to satisfy the law.
Holding back any of your pay sounds pretty illegal to me, and though there might be legitimate reasons (like deductions for bills), I'd suggest talking to the labor board about it.
I can easily see the school needing you for 90 days -- it can easily take that long to find a replacement. If you DO stay for the 90 days, that will put your time in country at 7 months, rather than your current 4 months. At the 6 month mark, you get more "rights" enforceable by the labor board, so if you DO stay, and the boss pulls anything hokey, you would have a better chance of fighting it at that point. You could also argue that you no longer need to "repay" the flight allowance (which might be the quasi-legitimate reason for the payroll hold).
You can do anything you want. Do you want to do the legal thing, the polite thing, the nice thing, the petty thing, the cruel thing, the proper thing, or anything else along the whole spectrum? Go ahead and make your choice. The professional thing would be what you seem to be doing -- giving proper notice, following the requirements of the contract, and living up to your obligations. 90 days would be a nicer thing for your boss, which you may or may not be inclined to consider, but as I said, at the 6 month mark, you have a bit more support from the labor board....
...but no, you can not be forced to stay for the 90 days...you may not be able to get a LOR, though, which means you have to leave the country, and possibly get another set of paperwork... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| No. They can not legally force you to stay. Just leave after payday and hand in your card at the airport. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
You could also argue that you no longer need to "repay" the flight allowance (which might be the quasi-legitimate reason for the payroll hold).
Y. |
While I agree with pretty much everything...repayment for the flight is governed by the contract. If it says they had to repay if they leave before 12 months then that is that. One mark of a good hakwon is that they say after six months you don't have to pay...but that is just standard practice not law. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
You could also argue that you no longer need to "repay" the flight allowance (which might be the quasi-legitimate reason for the payroll hold).
Y. |
While I agree with pretty much everything...repayment for the flight is governed by the contract. If it says they had to repay if they leave before 12 months then that is that. One mark of a good hakwon is that they say after six months you don't have to pay...but that is just standard practice not law. |
True -- any sort of payroll "hold" makes me suspicious, though I DO agree that a school has a right to take bills out of pay...I was merely trying to offer something that could be considered a real reason for the hold. Honestly, looking at previous posts by the OP, I think the hakwon owner is doing shady stuff, but it MIGHT be legitimate.... |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Read the labor standards act (pay attention to articles 7 and 19)..
http://www.moel.go.kr/english/topic/laborlaw_view.jsp?idx=254&tab=Standards
You are NOT required to give notice.
You cannot be forced to stay.
You cannot be forced to work.
They cannot withhold money from your pay (other than legal deductions as required by law).
Your boss is a liar and a thief. You give him more courtesy than I would.
I would be gone the day after payday and not look back.
IF I did look back it would only be after my return so as to file complaints with moel, NPS, and NHIC.
Immigration doesn't care if you quit and it won't make any difference if you leave now or in 90 days as far as they are concerned. Either way you will have to leave Korea to cancel your visa (count on not getting a LOR), return, find a new job, start the visa process again from scratch then do a visa run to Japan to get your new visa.
. |
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Koreadays
Joined: 20 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Immigration doesn't care if you quit and it won't make any difference if you leave now or in 90 days as far as they are concerned. Either way you will have to leave Korea to cancel your visa (count on not getting a LOR), return, find a new job, start the visa process again from scratch then do a visa run to Japan to get your new visa.
. |
not that easy, the labor office can't force the hakwon to do anything, they can only ask the hakwon owner to co operate .
also, the hakwon boss can refuse to release the teacher, meaning the teacher will not be able to get another visa until the 12 months has expired on the visa.. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. It is possible for those damages to exceed what you would earn in a year. If you plan to ever work in Korea again, you should give the proper notice.
In any case, since you probably have to repay airfare if you leave before six months, you should give enough notice so that you work to the six month mark.
Your best option is to draw up a termination contract wherein you guarantee to work an agreed period that allows your employer the time to replace you and he affirms that you will receive all payments due, letters of release so that you can change to new jobs without visa runs, and that you will have worked long enough to satisfy the airfare repayment clause. This will ease your boss's tensions and worries, it will give you a date certain to leave by, and should make everyone's life easier. You may be able to depart on good terms.
Try to have a good relationship in your final days. Try to work this out so that everyone wins and you will make your lives easier and you will come out ahead financially.
Ttompatz has flipped out lately. He is giving very bad advice. He should be ignored and treated as a troll. |
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WadRUG'naDoo
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. It is possible for those damages to exceed what you would earn in a year. If you plan to ever work in Korea again, you should give the proper notice.
In any case, since you probably have to repay airfare if you leave before six months, you should give enough notice so that you work to the six month mark.
Your best option is to draw up a termination contract wherein you guarantee to work an agreed period that allows your employer the time to replace you and he affirms that you will receive all payments due, letters of release so that you can change to new jobs without visa runs, and that you will have worked long enough to satisfy the airfare repayment clause. This will ease your boss's tensions and worries, it will give you a date certain to leave by, and should make everyone's life easier. You may be able to depart on good terms.
Try to have a good relationship in your final days. Try to work this out so that everyone wins and you will make your lives easier and you will come out ahead financially.
Ttompatz has flipped out lately. He is giving very bad advice. He should be ignored and treated as a troll. |
I think his advice is sound. Your comments look to me like you've flipped out. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| WadRUG'naDoo wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. It is possible for those damages to exceed what you would earn in a year. If you plan to ever work in Korea again, you should give the proper notice.
In any case, since you probably have to repay airfare if you leave before six months, you should give enough notice so that you work to the six month mark.
Your best option is to draw up a termination contract wherein you guarantee to work an agreed period that allows your employer the time to replace you and he affirms that you will receive all payments due, letters of release so that you can change to new jobs without visa runs, and that you will have worked long enough to satisfy the airfare repayment clause. This will ease your boss's tensions and worries, it will give you a date certain to leave by, and should make everyone's life easier. You may be able to depart on good terms.
Try to have a good relationship in your final days. Try to work this out so that everyone wins and you will make your lives easier and you will come out ahead financially.
Ttompatz has flipped out lately. He is giving very bad advice. He should be ignored and treated as a troll. |
I think his advice is sound. |
People have been given bad advice, such as Ttompatz's advice above, and followed it, and ended up losing out on good jobs they could have had, quitting early and getting less money, being required to get new documents when not necessary, and ending up in serous legal trouble.
Ttompatz is automatically prejudiced against any hogwan, he is paranoid about the intentions of every private sector boss, and his advice reflects this complete separation of his intellect from reality.
But, yeah, if it suits you, go with it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. l. |
The labor laws trump the contract.
30 days is all that is required.
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/dialogue/ifpdial/info/national/kor.htm
| Quote: |
Termination of employment
According to the Civil Code, a labour contract may be terminated at either party's initiative for any reason with an advance notice of one month. A termination at the employer's initiative, however, is restricted by labour acts, the LSA in particular. This restriction applies to labour contracts of an unlimited period as well as to those fixed term contracts that have been unlawfully extended. |
I've never even heard of hakwons suing teachers for not giving notice...has that even ever happened?
And I want to see links/a news story...not some unverifiable anecdote. I'm not even going to read the latter so don't bother.
And it depends where you are. If you are back home the chances of some school in Korea successfully suing you for leaving is virtually nil. Not to mention that they'd have to come over, and spend thousands of dollars waiting for the case to be heard. And at the end of it if if you have no money...they can't get blood out of a stone. So the hakwon boss ends up being thousands of dollars out of pocket not to mention the time away from his business. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. It is possible for those damages to exceed what you would earn in a year. If you plan to ever work in Korea again, you should give the proper notice.
In any case, since you probably have to repay airfare if you leave before six months, you should give enough notice so that you work to the six month mark.
Your best option is to draw up a termination contract wherein you guarantee to work an agreed period that allows your employer the time to replace you and he affirms that you will receive all payments due, letters of release so that you can change to new jobs without visa runs, and that you will have worked long enough to satisfy the airfare repayment clause. This will ease your boss's tensions and worries, it will give you a date certain to leave by, and should make everyone's life easier. You may be able to depart on good terms.
Try to have a good relationship in your final days. Try to work this out so that everyone wins and you will make your lives easier and you will come out ahead financially.
Ttompatz has flipped out lately. He is giving very bad advice. He should be ignored and treated as a troll. |
Article 19 of the labor standards act overrides the required notice in a labor contract drawn up for use in Korea.
Article 19 (Violation of Working Conditions)
(1) If any of the working conditions set forth in accordance with Article 17 (Statement of Working Conditions) is found to be inconsistent with the actual
conditions, the worker concerned shall be entitled to claim damages resulting from the breach of the working conditions or may terminate the labor contract forthwith.
| Koreadays wrote: |
not that easy, the labor office can't force the hakwon to do anything, they can only ask the hakwon owner to co operate .
also, the hakwon boss can refuse to release the teacher, meaning the teacher will not be able to get another visa until the 12 months has expired on the visa.. |
Yes, that easy.
The labor board does have enforcement teeth if it chooses to use them (although they often choose not to).
Yes, the hakwan can refuse to release the teacher (no LOR as was stated) but they can't prevent you from leaving and turning in your ARC on the way out (effectively canceling your visa anyway and releasing you for a new visa application).
There is no 1 year waiting period unless you forget to hand in your ARC (in which case you need to wait till ithe ARC expires).
IF you leave and cancel your visa (hand in your ARC on the way out) you DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT (beyond the usual application time frame) to get a new visa for a new job.
Quit, leave, return and start again. You aren't the first and certainly won't be the last.
| ontheway wrote: |
People have been given bad advice, such as Ttompatz's advice above, and followed it, and ended up losing out on good jobs they could have had, quitting early and getting less money, being required to get new documents when not necessary, and ending up in serous legal trouble.
Ttompatz is automatically prejudiced against any hogwan, he is paranoid about the intentions of every private sector boss, and his advice reflects this complete separation of his intellect from reality. |
Both of those statements are completely untrue.
.
. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Ttompaz, isn't a troll. I don't know everything he's talking about, but I did help a friend do a midnight run in 2008. Also, a recruiter helped her do it. We had her hand in her card, and she went to Thailand.
However, you have to consider it may take you some time to prepare your documents for working at another job in Korea. It does take time to get all the papers together. So, I don't know how things will apply in 2011 with the more difficult paperwork. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| WadRUG'naDoo wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. It is possible for those damages to exceed what you would earn in a year. If you plan to ever work in Korea again, you should give the proper notice.
In any case, since you probably have to repay airfare if you leave before six months, you should give enough notice so that you work to the six month mark.
Your best option is to draw up a termination contract wherein you guarantee to work an agreed period that allows your employer the time to replace you and he affirms that you will receive all payments due, letters of release so that you can change to new jobs without visa runs, and that you will have worked long enough to satisfy the airfare repayment clause. This will ease your boss's tensions and worries, it will give you a date certain to leave by, and should make everyone's life easier. You may be able to depart on good terms.
Try to have a good relationship in your final days. Try to work this out so that everyone wins and you will make your lives easier and you will come out ahead financially.
Ttompatz has flipped out lately. He is giving very bad advice. He should be ignored and treated as a troll. |
I think his advice is sound. |
People have been given bad advice, such as Ttompatz's advice above, and followed it, and ended up losing out on good jobs they could have had, quitting early and getting less money, being required to get new documents when not necessary, and ending up in serous legal trouble.
Ttompatz is automatically prejudiced against any hogwan, he is paranoid about the intentions of every private sector boss, and his advice reflects this complete separation of his intellect from reality.
But, yeah, if it suits you, go with it. |
Follow the TOS. Ad-hominems of the type above are not acceptable.
Make your point without engaging in such ad-hominems. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| ttomplatz is one of the most respected and helpful members on this forum. For someone to call him a troll sounds... trollish. If you've got evidence that counters his, by all means, please show it. |
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