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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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 Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: Hagwon required to double check foreign teachers� history |
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Interesting article
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20111018000880
English language private institutions will be required to check the passports, visas and foreign registration cards of foreign teachers before employment, according to a revised law related to private institutions, the Education Ministry said Tuesday.
According to the law which will take effect in Oct. 26, private English institutions, called hagwon here, will receive penalties of 3 million won ($2,600) or face closure if they do not follow the new requirements.
The same law revised in July requires owners of hagwon to check documents submitted when applying E-2 visas such as criminal record checks, health checks and degree certificates.
�As the number of foreign teachers increases at private institutions, problems are on the rise with some involved in sexual assault and drug trafficking. And we revised the law twice in order to enhance the verification process and protect students from potential crimes,� said Han Chang-jin, education official in charge of private institutions.
The law is intended to obligate hagwon owners to double check foreign teachers before they hire, but will not make foreign teachers submit the documents every time they move to a new hagwon or every year, said Yoo Byung-gil, official of Justice Ministry in charge of immigration.
�Foreign lecturers don�t need to submit the documents whenever they seek jobs at hagwon,� he said.
Mike Yates of the Association for F-class Expatriates within Korea said repeated checks should be avoided.
�I think it�s bureaucracy, once your record is checked at immigration, they shouldn�t be checking it again,� he said.
He also said the government should ask F-visa holders to submit the same documents which E-2 visa holders are required to.
F-2 (for spouse of Korean nationals), F-5 (for those seeking permanent residence) and F-4 (for Koreans with foreign nationality) visa holders are not required to submit criminal record checks at immigration.
A Korean-American wanted for attempted murder in the U.S. was found operating an English academy in Gangnam District earlier August, shocking many parents and students and raising voice to toughen identity check for foreign teachers.
There are about 22,600 E-2 visa holders in Korea and of them, about 15,000 foreigners are employed at hagwon for teaching English.
By Lee Woo-young ([email protected]) |
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HELICIS
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Korea is less and less attractive by the week!  |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| It's great how these guys can say "problems are on the rise" and offer no evidence supporting that. |
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jamesd
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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We are all criminals.  |
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Scouse Mouse
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Location: Cloud #9
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'd just like to point out that AFEK don't do press statements, and that I don't appreciate it when reporters dress up my personal opinions as such. It was made clear that I was giving my personal opinion and I was pretty annoyed to see my personal opinions presented as the AFEK viewpoint.
I also said that teachers should all be checked (once) not that F-visas should (visa and job are not the same thing). Oh... we were also discussing a totally different set of 'facts' but that's neither here nor there.
I'm hoping for a few corrections. I won't hold my breath. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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1. Every society needs a scapegoat. I guess the media and government don't think blaming Japan and China for all our problems is enough.
2. I think certain special interest groups are using their lobbying and connections to pressure out competition for their local teachers.
You may call this racism and xenophobia, but I'm coming to think it's deeper than that. Racism is just another tool for politicians. This is why I don't agree one bit to government regulation of racism. The same politicians who are supposedly so against discrimination will enact policies that make it harder for you guys to enter the country and group you as criminals. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
1. Every society needs a scapegoat. I guess the media and government don't think blaming Japan and China for all our problems is enough.
2. I think certain special interest groups are using their lobbying and connections to pressure out competition for their local teachers.
You may call this racism and xenophobia, but I'm coming to think it's deeper than that. Racism is just another tool for politicians. This is why I don't agree one bit to government regulation of racism. The same politicians who are supposedly so against discrimination will enact policies that make it harder for you guys to enter the country and group you as criminals. |
| Quote: |
The law is intended to obligate hagwon owners to double check foreign teachers before they hire, but will not make foreign teachers submit the documents every time they move to a new hagwon or every year, said Yoo Byung-gil, official of Justice Ministry in charge of
Immigration. |
Care to explain how this law is making it harder for foreigners to enter the country and group us all as criminals?
Teachers should be double-checked...everyone agrees on that. And everyone seems to agree we shouldn't have to submit these documents every year. So where exactly is the problem in the article? It's being made EASIER for us, not harder.
Some people will try to spin everything negatively... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
1. Every society needs a scapegoat. I guess the media and government don't think blaming Japan and China for all our problems is enough.
2. I think certain special interest groups are using their lobbying and connections to pressure out competition for their local teachers.
You may call this racism and xenophobia, but I'm coming to think it's deeper than that. Racism is just another tool for politicians. This is why I don't agree one bit to government regulation of racism. The same politicians who are supposedly so against discrimination will enact policies that make it harder for you guys to enter the country and group you as criminals. |
| Quote: |
The law is intended to obligate hagwon owners to double check foreign teachers before they hire, but will not make foreign teachers submit the documents every time they move to a new hagwon or every year, said Yoo Byung-gil, official of Justice Ministry in charge of
Immigration. |
Care to explain how this law is making it harder for foreigners to enter the country and group us all as criminals?
Teachers should be double-checked...everyone agrees on that. And everyone seems to agree we shouldn't have to submit these documents every year. So where exactly is the problem in the article? It's being made EASIER for us, not harder.
Some people will try to spin everything negatively... |
This states that hagwon owners should check documents submitted, but they already do that when they hand in the papers to immigration for us. What difference would it make it to do it a second time? How does that make things easier for us. It's unneeded bureaucracy. Really would an extra check really stop someone from committing a crime if the person was given the green light by immigration? I doubt it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
1. Every society needs a scapegoat. I guess the media and government don't think blaming Japan and China for all our problems is enough.
2. I think certain special interest groups are using their lobbying and connections to pressure out competition for their local teachers.
You may call this racism and xenophobia, but I'm coming to think it's deeper than that. Racism is just another tool for politicians. This is why I don't agree one bit to government regulation of racism. The same politicians who are supposedly so against discrimination will enact policies that make it harder for you guys to enter the country and group you as criminals. |
| Quote: |
The law is intended to obligate hagwon owners to double check foreign teachers before they hire, but will not make foreign teachers submit the documents every time they move to a new hagwon or every year, said Yoo Byung-gil, official of Justice Ministry in charge of
Immigration. |
Care to explain how this law is making it harder for foreigners to enter the country and group us all as criminals?
Teachers should be double-checked...everyone agrees on that. And everyone seems to agree we shouldn't have to submit these documents every year. So where exactly is the problem in the article? It's being made EASIER for us, not harder.
Some people will try to spin everything negatively... |
This states that hagwon owners should check documents submitted, but they already do that when they hand in the papers to immigration for us. What difference would it make it to do it a second time? How does that make things easier for us. It's unneeded bureaucracy. Really would an extra check really stop someone from committing a crime if the person was given the green light by immigration? I doubt it. |
You are misreading it. "Double check"does not mean do it a second time, it means do it more carefully.
Read the first three sentences again.
Many hakwon owners do NOT check. This law also targets hakwon owners who are hiring illegals by including penalties for those schools who do not comply.
Again that's a benefit for legal teachers. I see nothing to our detriment here.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| The good thing is, they mention gyopos as targets of the new rule. I'd say gyopos cause more trouble than non-Korean foreigners. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
1. Every society needs a scapegoat. I guess the media and government don't think blaming Japan and China for all our problems is enough.
2. I think certain special interest groups are using their lobbying and connections to pressure out competition for their local teachers.
You may call this racism and xenophobia, but I'm coming to think it's deeper than that. Racism is just another tool for politicians. This is why I don't agree one bit to government regulation of racism. The same politicians who are supposedly so against discrimination will enact policies that make it harder for you guys to enter the country and group you as criminals. |
| Quote: |
The law is intended to obligate hagwon owners to double check foreign teachers before they hire, but will not make foreign teachers submit the documents every time they move to a new hagwon or every year, said Yoo Byung-gil, official of Justice Ministry in charge of
Immigration. |
Care to explain how this law is making it harder for foreigners to enter the country and group us all as criminals?
Teachers should be double-checked...everyone agrees on that. And everyone seems to agree we shouldn't have to submit these documents every year. So where exactly is the problem in the article? It's being made EASIER for us, not harder.
Some people will try to spin everything negatively... |
This states that hagwon owners should check documents submitted, but they already do that when they hand in the papers to immigration for us. What difference would it make it to do it a second time? How does that make things easier for us. It's unneeded bureaucracy. Really would an extra check really stop someone from committing a crime if the person was given the green light by immigration? I doubt it. |
You are misreading it. "Double check"does not mean do it a second time, it means do it more carefully.
Read the first three sentences again.
Many hakwon owners do NOT check. This law also targets hakwon owners who are hiring illegals by including penalties for those schools who do not comply.
Again that's a benefit for legal teachers. I see nothing to our detriment here. |
Urban, I can understand that you're saying that some hagwon owners don't look properly at the paperwork submitted. However, isn't immigration supposed to have an apostille of our degrees. That indicates that our degrees are authentic. On top of that, they receive an FBI check, and they are supposed to look at that.
As far as an increasing number of crimes committed by foreigners, if you have a clean FBI check, it doesn't mean you will not commit some crime in the future or be caught. An FBI check, for example, won't identify a teacher who has smoked marijuana before only someone who wasn't caught. How can a hagwon owner catch that someone occassionally smokes joints if he or she was never busted for having had cannabis?
It's inevitable when you sharply increase the number of foreign teachers, the number of crimes committed by them will increase, but not the percentage. The percentage should stay the same. I agree with the idea of trying to keep out those who want to commit crimes out. If you want to smoke marijuana, that's your personal business, but do not do it in Korea.
Do that in Canada or the US if you want and at your own risk, too. Don't do it here. Here, it's frowned upon. Many Koreans magnify any infraction committed by a foreigner including consuming cannabis. In North America, more than half the population in Canada wouldn't care and half the population in the US wouldn't care, but we're in Korea and teachers who want to act as if they're in North America are not needed here, but looking closely at the CBC won't cut it if a person was never arrested for cannabis/marijuana.
You also stated that this should make things easier for foreign teachers. Could you explain how this would make things easier for us? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
1. Every society needs a scapegoat. I guess the media and government don't think blaming Japan and China for all our problems is enough.
2. I think certain special interest groups are using their lobbying and connections to pressure out competition for their local teachers.
You may call this racism and xenophobia, but I'm coming to think it's deeper than that. Racism is just another tool for politicians. This is why I don't agree one bit to government regulation of racism. The same politicians who are supposedly so against discrimination will enact policies that make it harder for you guys to enter the country and group you as criminals. |
| Quote: |
The law is intended to obligate hagwon owners to double check foreign teachers before they hire, but will not make foreign teachers submit the documents every time they move to a new hagwon or every year, said Yoo Byung-gil, official of Justice Ministry in charge of
Immigration. |
Care to explain how this law is making it harder for foreigners to enter the country and group us all as criminals?
Teachers should be double-checked...everyone agrees on that. And everyone seems to agree we shouldn't have to submit these documents every year. So where exactly is the problem in the article? It's being made EASIER for us, not harder.
Some people will try to spin everything negatively... |
This states that hagwon owners should check documents submitted, but they already do that when they hand in the papers to immigration for us. What difference would it make it to do it a second time? How does that make things easier for us. It's unneeded bureaucracy. Really would an extra check really stop someone from committing a crime if the person was given the green light by immigration? I doubt it. |
You are misreading it. "Double check"does not mean do it a second time, it means do it more carefully.
Read the first three sentences again.
Many hakwon owners do NOT check. This law also targets hakwon owners who are hiring illegals by including penalties for those schools who do not comply.
Again that's a benefit for legal teachers. I see nothing to our detriment here. |
Urban, I can understand that you're saying that some hagwon owners don't look properly at the paperwork submitted. However, isn't immigration supposed to have an apostille of our degrees. That indicates that our degrees are authentic. On top of that, they receive an FBI check, and they are supposed to look at that.
As far as an increasing number of crimes committed by foreigners, if you have a clean FBI check, it doesn't mean you will not commit some crime in the future or be caught. An FBI check, for example, won't identify a teacher who has smoked marijuana before only someone who wasn't caught. How can a hagwon owner catch that someone occassionally smokes joints if he or she was never busted for having had cannabis?
It's inevitable when you sharply increase the number of foreign teachers, the number of crimes committed by them will increase, but not the percentage. The percentage should stay the same. I agree with the idea of trying to keep out those who want to commit crimes out. If you want to smoke marijuana, that's your personal business, but do not do it in Korea.
Do that in Canada or the US if you want and at your own risk, too. Don't do it here. Here, it's frowned upon. Many Koreans magnify any infraction committed by a foreigner including consuming cannabis. In North America, more than half the population in Canada wouldn't care and half the population in the US wouldn't care, but we're in Korea and teachers who want to act as if they're in North America are not needed here, but looking closely at the CBC won't cut it if a person was never arrested for cannabis/marijuana.
You also stated that this should make things easier for foreign teachers. Could you explain how this would make things easier for us? |
Well first of all not all teachers have an apostille. Canada is not a signatory to that treaty so we have to get them notarized and checked by the consulate instead. What the owners (and Immigration) are supposed to be looking for are FAKE apostilles or notaries. Or fake CBC's. Immigration receives thousands of these documents every year and doesn't have the manpower to check them all properly. That's how some fakes get through.
By forcing hakwon owners to comply with checking the authorities both look like they are doing something AND adding an extra layer of defense against people with fake credentials...not that most would know the difference. But it makes a nice press release.
How it makes things easier for us? It says right there in the article that we will not have to re-submit these documents every year...even when we change jobs. Currently we have to. So right there is a positive change.
Also they mentioned that they will be cracking down on hakwons that do not comply. Since the only hakwons that will not comply will be the ones hiring illegal teachers they will be the ones fined or closed down. The more shady hakwons are forced to comply with the law the better for us, no?
Of course these depend on the authorities actually enforcing the law this time...but so far it looks quite positive. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hagwon required to double check foreign teachers� histor |
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| hellofaniceguy wrote: |
�As the number of foreign teachers increases at private institutions, problems are on the rise with some involved in sexual assault and drug trafficking..." |
Um...ok. I guess these FBI checks have failed us.
I think someone needs to learn the difference between correlation and causality. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer,
Apostilles on degrees do NOT indicate that the degree is authentic -- it indicates that the notarization is authentic. Big difference. I got my degree notarized for $1 by raising my right hand and swearing to the lady with the embosser, and I got my apostille by waiting in line at the DMV.
My degree IS authentic, and I am one of the folks that actually went through the short-lived process in which the Korean Ministry of Education employed a third party to authenticate degrees -- mine took 4 months. That method did, indeed, determine if one's degree was authentic, but the cost was apparently borne by the ministry rather than the individual, and it was a very time consuming process, so it was dropped shortly after it started. At my school, I was one of only three people that had to do that.... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Adventurer,
Apostilles on degrees do NOT indicate that the degree is authentic -- it indicates that the notarization is authentic. Big difference. I got my degree notarized for $1 by raising my right hand and swearing to the lady with the embosser, and I got my apostille by waiting in line at the DMV.
My degree IS authentic, and I am one of the folks that actually went through the short-lived process in which the Korean Ministry of Education employed a third party to authenticate degrees -- mine took 4 months. That method did, indeed, determine if one's degree was authentic, but the cost was apparently borne by the ministry rather than the individual, and it was a very time consuming process, so it was dropped shortly after it started. At my school, I was one of only three people that had to do that.... |
Well, in order to have my degree apostilled in West Virginia, I had my degree notarized in the same state where I graduated from, and had a state government official from West Virginia provide me with the apostille. Isn't that the standard operating procedure for most folks with a degree from the U.S.? As far as what Urban mentioned about Canada, I have my undergraduate degree from Canada. Canada doesn't do apostilles. That's correct. However, the consulate in Montreal had a copy of my transcript with a seal from a local Montreal university, and they had a notarized copy. Could someone fake all that with the transcript and the notarization? Possibly. It doesn't seem so easy. Is that easy to fake a transcript with the seal? I don't know. That's the most we can get anyway. How would checking what we submit guarantee something isn't fake?
It's good that we won't have to re-submit documents again. I didn't catch that part because they need to make it easier for lifers who have been good residents and those who want to stay here longer and have been good residents. That is positive, I agree.
I can understand many foreigners get a little paranoid because there is some xenophobia out there, but I was trying to look at this with an open-mind. However, I doubt having both the hagwon and immigration check things would truly stop an increase in some form of criminal activity in terms of numbers if you're increasing the number of teachers. People are people. An FBI check or RCMP check doesn't mean someone doesn't smoke joints. It means they've never been caught, and if someone does, they shouldn't do it here. We're not in Canada or the US.
Last edited by Adventurer on Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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