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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| You're saying that have in this case is possessive, and it is ungrammatical because it's hard to know if it refers to the past or present. When we're speaking of the present when it comes to wishes, we use the past tense. |
Actually, that is not what I said at all.
I was referring to the original sentence.
I wish I would have (more) energy.
I said that the 'have' in this sentence is possessive and not the same as the perfect aspect 'have' used in the survey.
I said that it is ungrammatical because the form of the sentence in unclear.
I said that is is unclear because we don't know if it is referencing the present or the future.
The problem is not 'have'...the problem is 'would'...which has been mentioned numerous times now in this thread.
When using 'would' incorrectly it leaves more than one possible interpretation...present and future.
I wish I would have (more) energy.
When? When does the person want this energy?
The correct answers could be
I wish I had more energy. - present
I hope I have more energy. - future
The past in not implied in the original sentence.
From the modified version that you gave:
I wish I would have had more energy.
I wish I had had more energy. - prescriptive past
But as mentioned, this form is debatable.
I wish I would have had more energy. - descriptive past - informal American usage
I hope that clears things up.
Privateer...excellent post.
Enjoyed reading your analysis...very thorough and intuitive.
Thanks for that. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You're saying that have in this case is possessive, and it is ungrammatical because it's hard to know if it refers to the past or present. When we're speaking of the present when it comes to wishes, we use the past tense. |
Actually, that is not what I said at all.
I was referring to the original sentence.
I wish I would have (more) energy.
I said that the 'have' in this sentence is possessive and not the same as the perfect aspect 'have' used in the survey.
I said that it is ungrammatical because the form of the sentence in unclear.
I said that is is unclear because we don't know if it is referencing the present or the future.
The problem is not 'have'...the problem is 'would'...which has been mentioned numerous times now in this thread.
When using 'would' incorrectly it leaves more than one possible interpretation...present and future.
I wish I would have (more) energy.
When? When does the person want this energy?
The correct answers could be
I wish I had more energy. - present
I hope I have more energy. - future
The past in not implied in the original sentence.
From the modified version that you gave:
I wish I would have had more energy.
I wish I had had more energy. - prescriptive past
But as mentioned, this form is debatable.
I wish I would have had more energy. - descriptive past - informal American usage
I hope that clears things up.
Privateer...excellent post.
Enjoyed reading your analysis...very thorough and intuitive.
Thanks for that. |
Just to clear things up," I wish I would had had more energy", would refer to a past event, and "I wish I had energy" refers to the present.
Have is in the perfect when a past participle follows it, which is expected.
I wish I had spoken to Jack.
I will look at privateer's comments. I did, and I will look over them carefully.
It's my b-day today. I'll go out now and do laundry then enjoy myself and not think about any grammar tonight:) I'll think about it tomorrow. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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substitution analysis - 24- 34. Borjas + Burridge.
constituency test - 25-27 Borjas + Burridge.
They are pretty basic grammar tests.
I wish - VP present
I would have more energy - present tense but talking about a future failure.
If I was playing tennis and I was going to lose and I said 'I wish I would have more energy' I could be saying my performance is bad and it will lead to a bad result due to lack of energy, maybe this lack of energy is understood.
The sentence is vernacular in spoken standard English, I would never write it down but it is grammatical.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
1. The sentence is grammatical with the substitution test.
2. I wish - I would have more energy - passes the constituency test.
3. The morphemes are fine.
It might not be the grammar I use but it's not ungrammatical, and you can't say it's wrong. |
Is this a prescriptive analysis?
Which substitution and constituency tests are you applying?
The morphemes are fine...in and of themselves...but certainly not together.
The lexical morphemes also need to be collocatively combined in such a way as to run accordant with currently acceptable grammatical production.
Present
I wish I would have more energy = I wish I had more energy.
However, if you are suggesting that 'would' is being used as a modality to express a future want...then the sentence itself is unclear...and wish would need to be changed to hope.
These are subtle differences, but they are important if you are discussing prescriptive analysis.
Future?
I wish I would have more energy. = I hope I have more energy. (I hope I will have more energy.)
I hope this is useful.
I hope this will be useful. |
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Birder
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| How many pages on all of this already? Three? This just seems like basic Conditionals/Hypotheticals and Subjunctive stuff to me. A lot of over-thinking going on in this thread. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| The sentence is vernacular in spoken standard English, I would never write it down but it is grammatical. |
Unfortunately, it wasn't vernacular in spoken standard English...it was a mistake made by an L2 learner...you do understand that...yes?
It is ungrammatical...the reasons have been discussed. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| It's my b-day today. I'll go out now and do laundry then enjoy myself and not think about any grammar tonight:) I'll think about it tomorrow. |
Happy Birthday Adventurer!
Enjoy the adventure.  |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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The fact you are making a statement that grammar is absolute is funny. I would say the grammar is inappropriate for a test but if someone said to me, I wish I would have more energy it would make sense grammatically.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The sentence is vernacular in spoken standard English, I would never write it down but it is grammatical. |
Unfortunately, it wasn't vernacular in spoken standard English...it was a mistake made by an L2 learner...you do understand that...yes?
It is ungrammatical...the reasons have been discussed. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
The fact you are making a statement that grammar is absolute is funny. I would say the grammar is inappropriate for a test but if someone said to me, I wish I would have more energy it would make sense grammatically.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The sentence is vernacular in spoken standard English, I would never write it down but it is grammatical. |
Unfortunately, it wasn't vernacular in spoken standard English...it was a mistake made by an L2 learner...you do understand that...yes?
It is ungrammatical...the reasons have been discussed. |
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Well it's good that you find it funny, because at this point I imagine myself and anyone else still reading this thread just find it sad.
However, for the sake of putting this thread to rest, let's just say we obviously have different working definitions for the word 'grammatical'.
Mine generally means... adhering to or following the rules of commonly accepted grammar structures and principles...both descriptively and prescriptively.
Yours seems to mean...vaguely understandable at about a less than 50% chance of being accurate.
Best of luck with that. |
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Birder
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
The fact you are making a statement that grammar is absolute is funny. I would say the grammar is inappropriate for a test but if someone said to me, I wish I would have more energy it would make sense grammatically.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The sentence is vernacular in spoken standard English, I would never write it down but it is grammatical. |
Unfortunately, it wasn't vernacular in spoken standard English...it was a mistake made by an L2 learner...you do understand that...yes?
It is ungrammatical...the reasons have been discussed. |
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Well it's good that you find it funny, because at this point I imagine myself and anyone else still reading this thread just find it sad.
However, for the sake of putting this thread to rest, let's just say we obviously have different working definitions for the word 'grammatical'.
Mine generally means... adhering to or following the rules of commonly accepted grammar structures and principles...both descriptively and prescriptively.
Yours seems to mean...vaguely understandable at about a less than 50% chance of being accurate.
Best of luck with that. |
Wow, loathe Facebook as I do, I find I wish I could "like" this comment. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Change the verb and it becomes a bit clearer.
EX:
I wish I understood more grammar. (it uses a past tense because it's talking about a pre-existent condition, that of having understanding)
You would never say, (if you are a native speaker)
I wish I would understand more grammar.
but you might say,
I wish I could understand more grammar.
'would' seems to imply a future hope and that's why it doesn't work., but "could" speaks of past ability (which still exists in the present)
I hope this helps. Cosmic Hum is right, grammatically speaking. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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You are mistaking grammar for arrogance.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
The fact you are making a statement that grammar is absolute is funny. I would say the grammar is inappropriate for a test but if someone said to me, I wish I would have more energy it would make sense grammatically.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The sentence is vernacular in spoken standard English, I would never write it down but it is grammatical. |
Unfortunately, it wasn't vernacular in spoken standard English...it was a mistake made by an L2 learner...you do understand that...yes?
It is ungrammatical...the reasons have been discussed. |
|
Well it's good that you find it funny, because at this point I imagine myself and anyone else still reading this thread just find it sad.
However, for the sake of putting this thread to rest, let's just say we obviously have different working definitions for the word 'grammatical'.
Mine generally means... adhering to or following the rules of commonly accepted grammar structures and principles...both descriptively and prescriptively.
Yours seems to mean...vaguely understandable at about a less than 50% chance of being accurate.
Best of luck with that. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Ignorance and arrogance partnered in a grammar dance.
Neither knowing where nor why to cross the T or dot the I.
Finally they both conceded...neither one was truly needed.
Off the thread and off the light�time is now to say goodnight. |
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