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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Q. Why was an enforcement action taken this morning?
A. From the start of the demonstration two weeks ago, the City of Oakland focused on facilitating the protesters� right to free speech and peaceful expression while maintaining public health, safety and crowd control. Over the past weeks, the City provided multiple and frequent written notices to outline requirements to protect the health and safety of the group and of the City Hall area. After the first weekend, the City received reports of problems, and communicated to the protesters about additional health and safety concerns. But by the end of last week, it was apparent that overnight camping would have to end due to health and safety issues and continued violations of the law. On Oct. 21, Frank Ogawa Plaza was red tagged, requiring protestors to vacate. On the morning of Oct. 25, many protestors left the plaza after Police announced that they would be arrested if they did not disperse. Those who chose to stay were removed without any reported injuries.
A. There were a series of safety conditions, including numerous reports of fighting, assault and threatening/intimidating behavior. Medical responders (AMR Ambulance Company) were denied access on at least two occasions to provide medical care. Furthermore, the Oakland Fire Department and Police Department were denied access to the Plaza to respond to calls for service.
Sanitation conditions worsened with frequent instances of public urination and defecation, as well as improper food storage. The existing rodent problem on the Plaza was exacerbated and vector control was unable to implement measures to control the rat problem due to the presence of overnight campers. The Plaza was physically damaged on a daily basis by graffiti, litter and vandalism. Fire hazards continued unabated, including cooking with open flame, improper storageofgrease, inadequate fire extinguishers, density of tents and flammable materialsand smoking in tents.There werereports of public drinkingand intoxication. Numerous complaintsfrom employees and businesses were received regardingconcernfor safety.
Q. Why did the enforcement action occur early in the morning?
A.Last Wednesday, it became apparent that the tenor of the encampment hadchangedand that there were increasing incidents of violence. Reports of a man seriously beatenand continued denials of access to PD & FDfor calls for servicewere received.As such, the Citycould no longerpreserve health and safetyof theprotestors or the public. As part of the planning process, the Police asked the countyand state for mutual aid�which wasa 5-dayprocess. The decision to execute the enforcementaction on Tuesday morning was based on thereality thatfewer individuals (as part of the protest and thosegoing to work)would be present at the Plaza at the time, thus would be safer for all. |
So fire hazards, bad sanitation, and violence occurred on the part of the protestors. They wouldn't even let medical responders through.
And when they were told to move, they refused. They had two weeks...that's enough. People live and work in the Plaza, and don't deserve to have their safety and livelihood threatened.
The protestors bought it on themselves. When you are throwing bottles and rocks at police don't be surprised if someone is injured. Plus they didn't say anyone wasn't injured, they said they had no REPORTED injuries. Also in that video we can't see what really happened...for all we know he got hit in the head by a rock or bottle thrown by a protestor.
Gonna need more facts than this to condemn the police. So far it's not looking good at all for the protestors.
And apparently that wasn't enough for them.
| Quote: |
| The protesters later regrouped and started hurling eggs at the riot police, who responded by firing paint-balls at them. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Quote: |
Q. Why was an enforcement action taken this morning?
A. From the start of the demonstration two weeks ago, the City of Oakland focused on facilitating the protesters� right to free speech and peaceful expression while maintaining public health, safety and crowd control. Over the past weeks, the City provided multiple and frequent written notices to outline requirements to protect the health and safety of the group and of the City Hall area. After the first weekend, the City received reports of problems, and communicated to the protesters about additional health and safety concerns. But by the end of last week, it was apparent that overnight camping would have to end due to health and safety issues and continued violations of the law. On Oct. 21, Frank Ogawa Plaza was red tagged, requiring protestors to vacate. On the morning of Oct. 25, many protestors left the plaza after Police announced that they would be arrested if they did not disperse. Those who chose to stay were removed without any reported injuries.
A. There were a series of safety conditions, including numerous reports of fighting, assault and threatening/intimidating behavior. Medical responders (AMR Ambulance Company) were denied access on at least two occasions to provide medical care. Furthermore, the Oakland Fire Department and Police Department were denied access to the Plaza to respond to calls for service.
Sanitation conditions worsened with frequent instances of public urination and defecation, as well as improper food storage. The existing rodent problem on the Plaza was exacerbated and vector control was unable to implement measures to control the rat problem due to the presence of overnight campers. The Plaza was physically damaged on a daily basis by graffiti, litter and vandalism. Fire hazards continued unabated, including cooking with open flame, improper storageofgrease, inadequate fire extinguishers, density of tents and flammable materialsand smoking in tents.There werereports of public drinkingand intoxication. Numerous complaintsfrom employees and businesses were received regardingconcernfor safety.
Q. Why did the enforcement action occur early in the morning?
A.Last Wednesday, it became apparent that the tenor of the encampment hadchangedand that there were increasing incidents of violence. Reports of a man seriously beatenand continued denials of access to PD & FDfor calls for servicewere received.As such, the Citycould no longerpreserve health and safetyof theprotestors or the public. As part of the planning process, the Police asked the countyand state for mutual aid�which wasa 5-dayprocess. The decision to execute the enforcementaction on Tuesday morning was based on thereality thatfewer individuals (as part of the protest and thosegoing to work)would be present at the Plaza at the time, thus would be safer for all. |
So fire hazards, bad sanitation, and violence occurred on the part of the protestors. They wouldn't even let medical responders through.
And when they were told to move, they refused. They had two weeks...that's enough. People live and work in the Plaza, and don't deserve to have their safety and livelihood threatened.
The protestors bought it on themselves. When you are throwing bottles and rocks at police don't be surprised if someone is injured. Plus they didn't say anyone wasn't injured, they said they had no REPORTED injuries. Also in that video we can't see what really happened...for all we know he got hit in the head by a rock or bottle thrown by a protestor.
Gonna need more facts than this to condemn the police. So far it's not looking good at all for the protestors.
And apparently that wasn't enough for them.
| Quote: |
| The protesters later regrouped and started hurling eggs at the riot police, who responded by firing paint-balls at them. |
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Curious, what's your source for all that TUM? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Quote: |
Q. Why was an enforcement action taken this morning?
A. From the start of the demonstration two weeks ago, the City of Oakland focused on facilitating the protesters� right to free speech and peaceful expression while maintaining public health, safety and crowd control. Over the past weeks, the City provided multiple and frequent written notices to outline requirements to protect the health and safety of the group and of the City Hall area. After the first weekend, the City received reports of problems, and communicated to the protesters about additional health and safety concerns. But by the end of last week, it was apparent that overnight camping would have to end due to health and safety issues and continued violations of the law. On Oct. 21, Frank Ogawa Plaza was red tagged, requiring protestors to vacate. On the morning of Oct. 25, many protestors left the plaza after Police announced that they would be arrested if they did not disperse. Those who chose to stay were removed without any reported injuries.
A. There were a series of safety conditions, including numerous reports of fighting, assault and threatening/intimidating behavior. Medical responders (AMR Ambulance Company) were denied access on at least two occasions to provide medical care. Furthermore, the Oakland Fire Department and Police Department were denied access to the Plaza to respond to calls for service.
Sanitation conditions worsened with frequent instances of public urination and defecation, as well as improper food storage. The existing rodent problem on the Plaza was exacerbated and vector control was unable to implement measures to control the rat problem due to the presence of overnight campers. The Plaza was physically damaged on a daily basis by graffiti, litter and vandalism. Fire hazards continued unabated, including cooking with open flame, improper storageofgrease, inadequate fire extinguishers, density of tents and flammable materialsand smoking in tents.There werereports of public drinkingand intoxication. Numerous complaintsfrom employees and businesses were received regardingconcernfor safety.
Q. Why did the enforcement action occur early in the morning?
A.Last Wednesday, it became apparent that the tenor of the encampment hadchangedand that there were increasing incidents of violence. Reports of a man seriously beatenand continued denials of access to PD & FDfor calls for servicewere received.As such, the Citycould no longerpreserve health and safetyof theprotestors or the public. As part of the planning process, the Police asked the countyand state for mutual aid�which wasa 5-dayprocess. The decision to execute the enforcementaction on Tuesday morning was based on thereality thatfewer individuals (as part of the protest and thosegoing to work)would be present at the Plaza at the time, thus would be safer for all. |
So fire hazards, bad sanitation, and violence occurred on the part of the protestors. They wouldn't even let medical responders through.
And when they were told to move, they refused. They had two weeks...that's enough. People live and work in the Plaza, and don't deserve to have their safety and livelihood threatened.
The protestors bought it on themselves. When you are throwing bottles and rocks at police don't be surprised if someone is injured. Plus they didn't say anyone wasn't injured, they said they had no REPORTED injuries. Also in that video we can't see what really happened...for all we know he got hit in the head by a rock or bottle thrown by a protestor.
Gonna need more facts than this to condemn the police. So far it's not looking good at all for the protestors.
And apparently that wasn't enough for them.
| Quote: |
| The protesters later regrouped and started hurling eggs at the riot police, who responded by firing paint-balls at them. |
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Curious, what's your source for all that TUM? |
From the OP's own links...the first quote is from the second link while the second quote is from the third link) |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Quote: |
Q. Why was an enforcement action taken this morning?
A. From the start of the demonstration two weeks ago, the City of Oakland focused on facilitating the protesters� right to free speech and peaceful expression while maintaining public health, safety and crowd control. Over the past weeks, the City provided multiple and frequent written notices to outline requirements to protect the health and safety of the group and of the City Hall area. After the first weekend, the City received reports of problems, and communicated to the protesters about additional health and safety concerns. But by the end of last week, it was apparent that overnight camping would have to end due to health and safety issues and continued violations of the law. On Oct. 21, Frank Ogawa Plaza was red tagged, requiring protestors to vacate. On the morning of Oct. 25, many protestors left the plaza after Police announced that they would be arrested if they did not disperse. Those who chose to stay were removed without any reported injuries.
A. There were a series of safety conditions, including numerous reports of fighting, assault and threatening/intimidating behavior. Medical responders (AMR Ambulance Company) were denied access on at least two occasions to provide medical care. Furthermore, the Oakland Fire Department and Police Department were denied access to the Plaza to respond to calls for service.
Sanitation conditions worsened with frequent instances of public urination and defecation, as well as improper food storage. The existing rodent problem on the Plaza was exacerbated and vector control was unable to implement measures to control the rat problem due to the presence of overnight campers. The Plaza was physically damaged on a daily basis by graffiti, litter and vandalism. Fire hazards continued unabated, including cooking with open flame, improper storageofgrease, inadequate fire extinguishers, density of tents and flammable materialsand smoking in tents.There werereports of public drinkingand intoxication. Numerous complaintsfrom employees and businesses were received regardingconcernfor safety.
Q. Why did the enforcement action occur early in the morning?
A.Last Wednesday, it became apparent that the tenor of the encampment hadchangedand that there were increasing incidents of violence. Reports of a man seriously beatenand continued denials of access to PD & FDfor calls for servicewere received.As such, the Citycould no longerpreserve health and safetyof theprotestors or the public. As part of the planning process, the Police asked the countyand state for mutual aid�which wasa 5-dayprocess. The decision to execute the enforcementaction on Tuesday morning was based on thereality thatfewer individuals (as part of the protest and thosegoing to work)would be present at the Plaza at the time, thus would be safer for all. |
So fire hazards, bad sanitation, and violence occurred on the part of the protestors. They wouldn't even let medical responders through.
And when they were told to move, they refused. They had two weeks...that's enough. People live and work in the Plaza, and don't deserve to have their safety and livelihood threatened.
The protestors bought it on themselves. When you are throwing bottles and rocks at police don't be surprised if someone is injured. Plus they didn't say anyone wasn't injured, they said they had no REPORTED injuries. Also in that video we can't see what really happened...for all we know he got hit in the head by a rock or bottle thrown by a protestor.
Gonna need more facts than this to condemn the police. So far it's not looking good at all for the protestors.
And apparently that wasn't enough for them.
| Quote: |
| The protesters later regrouped and started hurling eggs at the riot police, who responded by firing paint-balls at them. |
|
Curious, what's your source for all that TUM? |
From the OP's own links...the first quote is from the second link while the second quote is from the third link) |
Well, the police in their own press release deny using any flash bangs and you can see them being use clear as day in the video. They were also being used on protestors clearly not attacking the police but going to the aid of someone who was shot by either a bean bag gun (maybe one of the 4 shots the police claim they fired) I don't see how this looks good for the police? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| shifter2009 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Quote: |
Q. Why was an enforcement action taken this morning?
A. From the start of the demonstration two weeks ago, the City of Oakland focused on facilitating the protesters� right to free speech and peaceful expression while maintaining public health, safety and crowd control. Over the past weeks, the City provided multiple and frequent written notices to outline requirements to protect the health and safety of the group and of the City Hall area. After the first weekend, the City received reports of problems, and communicated to the protesters about additional health and safety concerns. But by the end of last week, it was apparent that overnight camping would have to end due to health and safety issues and continued violations of the law. On Oct. 21, Frank Ogawa Plaza was red tagged, requiring protestors to vacate. On the morning of Oct. 25, many protestors left the plaza after Police announced that they would be arrested if they did not disperse. Those who chose to stay were removed without any reported injuries.
A. There were a series of safety conditions, including numerous reports of fighting, assault and threatening/intimidating behavior. Medical responders (AMR Ambulance Company) were denied access on at least two occasions to provide medical care. Furthermore, the Oakland Fire Department and Police Department were denied access to the Plaza to respond to calls for service.
Sanitation conditions worsened with frequent instances of public urination and defecation, as well as improper food storage. The existing rodent problem on the Plaza was exacerbated and vector control was unable to implement measures to control the rat problem due to the presence of overnight campers. The Plaza was physically damaged on a daily basis by graffiti, litter and vandalism. Fire hazards continued unabated, including cooking with open flame, improper storageofgrease, inadequate fire extinguishers, density of tents and flammable materialsand smoking in tents.There werereports of public drinkingand intoxication. Numerous complaintsfrom employees and businesses were received regardingconcernfor safety.
Q. Why did the enforcement action occur early in the morning?
A.Last Wednesday, it became apparent that the tenor of the encampment hadchangedand that there were increasing incidents of violence. Reports of a man seriously beatenand continued denials of access to PD & FDfor calls for servicewere received.As such, the Citycould no longerpreserve health and safetyof theprotestors or the public. As part of the planning process, the Police asked the countyand state for mutual aid�which wasa 5-dayprocess. The decision to execute the enforcementaction on Tuesday morning was based on thereality thatfewer individuals (as part of the protest and thosegoing to work)would be present at the Plaza at the time, thus would be safer for all. |
So fire hazards, bad sanitation, and violence occurred on the part of the protestors. They wouldn't even let medical responders through.
And when they were told to move, they refused. They had two weeks...that's enough. People live and work in the Plaza, and don't deserve to have their safety and livelihood threatened.
The protestors bought it on themselves. When you are throwing bottles and rocks at police don't be surprised if someone is injured. Plus they didn't say anyone wasn't injured, they said they had no REPORTED injuries. Also in that video we can't see what really happened...for all we know he got hit in the head by a rock or bottle thrown by a protestor.
Gonna need more facts than this to condemn the police. So far it's not looking good at all for the protestors.
And apparently that wasn't enough for them.
| Quote: |
| The protesters later regrouped and started hurling eggs at the riot police, who responded by firing paint-balls at them. |
|
Curious, what's your source for all that TUM? |
From the OP's own links...the first quote is from the second link while the second quote is from the third link) |
Well, the police in their own press release deny using any flash bangs and you can see them being use clear as day in the video. They were also being used on protestors clearly not attacking the police but going to the aid of someone who was shot by either a bean bag gun (maybe one of the 4 shots the police claim they fired) I don't see how this looks good for the police? |
I don't see where I said it looks good for the police? And yes you can see flashes in the video..the police claim that those were M-80 explosives being used by the protestors though.
All things tallied up it doesn't look particularly good for either side..but worse for the protestors though IMO.
If they hadn't been there in the first place or had obeyed repeated orders to disperse..none of this would have happened. You don't provoke and attack officers of the law...that never ends well. And that's simply not the way we (are supposed to) handle things in a civilized society. |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="TheUrbanMyth"][quote="shifter2009"][quote="TheUrbanMyth"][quote="Leon"][quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| Quote: |
Q.
I don't see where I said it looks good for the police? And yes you can see flashes in the video..the police claim that those were M-80 explosives being used by the protestors though.
All things tallied up it doesn't look particularly good for either side..but worse for the protestors though IMO.
If they hadn't been there in the first place or had obeyed repeated orders to disperse..none of this would have happened. You don't provoke and attack officers of the law...that never ends well. And that's simply not the way we (are supposed to) handle things in a civilized society. |
Well, if you watch the video all the way through, at 1:40 or so you can see the police clearing throwing a flash bang into that group trying to help their downed friend. In a civilized society, we don't have police using that kind of force on it's population. There on no bricks or molotov cocktails here. Also, if it was justified, why are they lying about it? Take the time to google some articles on the Oakland police, their record recently has been very poor. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:42 am Post subject: |
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For the protesters to be throwing anything at the police was a foolish, foolish move. Maintaining peaceful but provokative non-violent civil disobedience is the much better, more effective tactic. Much smarter was the crowd which chanted, "The police need a raise, too."
When attacking a system for being immoral, the greatest weapon is your own moral position. Resorting to violence is to surrender your own greatest weapon. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: ... |
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Purely based on the video, whatever was thrown came from the police side of the barricade and was thrown at people who were not engaged in any hostile action.
I agree that even throwing eggs at the police violates the concept of proper civil disobedience.
I agree that the police are duty-bound to carry out their work, but courts punish people, not police. That goes all the way back to "don't taze me, bro". It's a confusing situation, but the crowd was dispersing, there was an obvious reason people moved forward, and no police were in any life-threatening circumstances. So, to flashbang those people was unwarranted.
And maybe it's best to watch the video before deciding. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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So I've read and seen a lot about the events in Oakland since it is my hometown. My own two cents:
1. The actions the OPD took on Tuesday morning were justified and professionally done. From what I have gathered, it was well-executed.
2. Tuesday EVENING things went to shit. Basically the cops overreacted and turned a mild protest into a big s-storm. Obviously overreaction is my own opinion. I have not seen a SINGLE video of anyone throwing anything at cops. Evidence of cops shooting tear gas and other projectiles is plentiful. The video of the Iraq vet getting injured is one of the more disturbing videos I've seen recently. Whichever cop threw that cannister (or flash grenade or whatever the hell it was) is one messed up individual.
3. Even more evidence of the cops overreacting is the fact that yesterday (Wednesday) 3X as many protestors showed up and yet no violence occured. What was the biggest difference? The police did not confront the protestors. Instead they allowed people to protest in the plaza until 10 PM, as the law allows citizens to do.
4. I think one reason the cops overreacted Tuesday evening was they were paranoid another Oscar Grant style riot would break out. Given the fact that was a little over a year ago, it would be no surprise to me if those riots were at the forefront of the cops' minds.
5. A lot of non-OPD cops were also there, many of whom are in jurisdictions that are a little less, umm, urban and probably are less experienced in crowd control.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I suspect things will die down and Tuesday evening's events will not be repeated. Perhaps I'm just an overly optimistic person  . |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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I think the Revolution has found its Charlotte Corday. Take a look at 2:15 of this interview:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/#45055884
She doesn't make the best spokesperson, does she? "You mean, now?"  You don't have to be a reactionary to take exception to the claim that it's OK to throw bottles at cops if the cops are wearing full riot gear.
I'm curious how she was chosen for the interview. I have a feeling she was just snagged off the street corner by MSNBC. For the sake of OWS, I hope she wasn't designated to speak. On the other hand, she does have that Charlotte Corday look in her eyes.  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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A Mother Jones reporter was there. Here is his report:
http://m.motherjones.com/mojo/2011/10/occupy-oakland-protesters-violence
I think this view is correct:
Violent agitators pose risk for Occupy movement:
The small group of protesters who threw bottles at police in Oakland handed a gift to the Right
Prominent right-wing commentators have been busy for days now trying to portray Occupy Wall Street participants as �rioters.� Here�s Rush Limbaugh. Here�s Glenn Beck�s website. Here�s Human Events. Here�s the Washington Examiner. And so on.
It was inevitable that Rush and Co. would fall back on the �rioters� line. But Occupy Wall Street now has a potentially serious problem: violent agitators within the movement who could help legitimize the Right�s narrative.
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/27/violent_agitators_pose_risk_for_occupy_movement/ |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Those protesters looking like hippies playing hackeysack are their own worst enemies*. Police critically injuring veterans is the opposition's own worst enemy and accomplished nothing but helping the cause and turns all the other citizens against the police. Real smart. That's what happens when your company has a lower and UPPER intelligence cutoff.
I am aware that not all protesters fall into this demographic. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Purely based on the video, whatever was thrown came from the police side of the barricade and was thrown at people who were not engaged in any hostile action.
I agree that even throwing eggs at the police violates the concept of proper civil disobedience.
I agree that the police are duty-bound to carry out their work, but courts punish people, not police. That goes all the way back to "don't taze me, bro". It's a confusing situation, but the crowd was dispersing, there was an obvious reason people moved forward, and no police were in any life-threatening circumstances. So, to flashbang those people was unwarranted.
And maybe it's best to watch the video before deciding. |
Except that the video doesn't show anything before or after. It focuses on one specific incident for a few moments.
Yeah it's quite easy to make the police look bad in a quick 2-3 minute video. But if the video had been longer or covered the entire protest from end to end I bet we would have seen plenty of violence. Before the police moved in there were reports of people being beaten up and when the ambulances were called, the protesters wouldn't let them through. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: ... |
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So, to put it into form:
Protesters blocked ambulances, therefore it was justified for law enforcement to flashbang a group of people moving to help someone injured?
No.
There was a lot of violence that day, therefore it was justified for law enforcement to flashbang a group of people moving to help someone injured?
No.
This stands alone without bringing in extenuating circumstances. Not sure legally how it will play out, but the person who tossed that or ordered it thrown should not be entrusted with such technology in the future. |
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