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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bootsanator wrote: |
| There is nothing written in the contract about me leaving and/or not leaving the country, that's the thing. |
I'm pretty sure that it would be very, very illegal for them to try to put it in the contract. A contract with a conditional clause relevant to what you do after completing the contract? There's no way that would fly. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Some contracts have non compete clauses which ban you from working/selling certain things for a certain time in a certain area to certain people after employment. So things like that are possible. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| What difference does it make if you go home now or later? |
I am hired on a montly salary. If any employer in this situation asks me for an hourly rate besides being related to overtime, I refuse to give a figure or report any figure. A monthly salary at 2,000,000 should be just that. If I worked only 2 weeks, and it was understood it would be prorated, then I accept that.
However, at no time have I taken a day's pay in China or Korea. I would never agree to this. However, transportation and commuting fees are not extra income. Chances are, schools won't care if you walked to school instead of using money they gave. It simply won't be accounted for. A higher "ticket" item, like airfare is a completely different story. That's about half your monthly salary, whereas bus fare is only 900 (when I was there).
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| The OP did say he will be going home, just not right now |
If he doesn't have to sign a new contract and submit it to the immigration office, then I would support this. In that case, he wouldn't have a second employer legally.
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| He's only asking for what was agreed upon in the contract. |
The agreement is only based on a 1 year plan. You come to Korea, you teach, you go home. It doesn't account for you coming to Korea, leaving, re-entering for another year (with a new school), etc...
Why aren't you arguing for collecting pension then? You seem to be ok with waiting for pension. The airfare home should be looked at as the same thing. The intent is for you to get airfare to Korea, and then airfare home. 1 + 1 = 2, not 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. If you are going to do that, then why don't you argue for 1 trip to Korea + 1 trip home from the first school + 1 trip back from the second school + 1 trip home = 4 while not leaving Korea altogether? It will be like a second severance.
I think if you asked any employer for a second severance you would be looked at as crazy and greedy. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Why aren't you arguing for collecting pension then? You seem to be ok with waiting for pension. The airfare home should be looked at as the same thing. The intent is for you to get airfare to Korea, and then airfare home. 1 + 1 = 2, not 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. If you are going to do that, then why don't you argue for 1 trip to Korea + 1 trip home from the first school + 1 trip back from the second school + 1 trip home = 4 while not leaving Korea altogether? It will be like a second severance. |
No, it's not the same thing as pension: pension is a government program you pay into that has absolutely nothing to do with your school, or your contract. |
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Bootsanator
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Pension is a government program that is completely independent. I'll collect that when I'm done working in Korea for good, or for a long time, anyway.
| koreatimes wrote: |
why don't you argue for 1 trip to Korea + 1 trip home from the first school + 1 trip back from the second school + 1 trip home = 4 while not leaving Korea altogether? It will be like a second severance.
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Really? Uh, no.
Contract says I get airfare.
Airfare is money.
∴
Contract says I get money.
That's the way I see it, that's the way a lot of people seem to see it, that's the way it's worded in the contract ... how else could I put it?
At this point I'm starting to think you're just having a lot of fun playing Devil's Advocate. (I would understand that, arguing can be fun.)
Any airfare agreement with the second school has nothing to do with this discussion, which is about my grounds on getting the money from the school that the contract says I should get. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are right boots.
However, the labor board does not get involved in matters pertaining to flight reimbursement or travel allowance.
You have to pursue your owner through small claims or civil court (not exactly sure of the process here). Which means a lot of time wasted (time is money, and good luck getting time off from your new school to show up in court), totally ruining your reference with them because even a threat of that they will not take well (as evidenced by them being insulted by you finding a different job elsewhere even though you held up your end of the deal through the entire contract), and perhaps paying for a lawyer. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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I would go for the cash, especially if you already have the next job. You are entitled to that money in both the letter and spirit of your contract. I assume that your new job is not providing airfare home. This means that, unless you plan on staying in Korea forever, that you WILL be going home, and your old school is contractually (and spiritually) honored to pay that.
| Quote: |
| The employee's one-way economy class or regular class airfare to Korea will be paid by the school. Return airfare to the employee's home country shall be paid by the school upon completion of the 12 month contractual teaching period. Return airfare will not be provided if the employee leaves the school prior to completion of the 12 month teaching period. If the employee terminates the contract for any reason within 6 months, the employee is responsible for reimbursing the school for the cost of the plane ticket to Korea. |
The key part here is in bold. Airfare is money, not a ticket. According to the wording in his contract (and the spirit of the arrangement), he is owed airfare home.
Nathan got it right:
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| It's simple for me - if they had included a clause that said you MUST leave, or you MUST take the ticket we give you, or some other section like that, they'd be right. But what they said is that he gets the airfare if he completes the job. He completed the job. Period. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| That's the way I see it, that's the way a lot of people seem to see it, that's the way it's worded in the contract ... how else could I put it? |
It is there in context of you coming and then leaving. It is not like back home where you have residency. This concept is going past some of you.
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| Any airfare agreement with the second school has nothing to do with this discussion, which is about my grounds on getting the money from the school that the contract says I should get. |
If you stay in Korea with a second school, sure it does. The first contract never addressed a second school. If it did, then the employer would surely not put it in the contract that the teacher would get it. Use common sense here.
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| However, the labor board does not get involved in matters pertaining to flight reimbursement or travel allowance. |
Imagine that.
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| Airfare is money, not a ticket. |
Doesn't matter. The intent and spirit of the contract is for the teacher to come and leave the country. It is not addressing anything beyond that if the teacher were to stay in the country. The school would never have agreed to pay a return flight if they knew that the teacher was going to stay. It's common sense.
You guys are dreaming and wishing for something that WILL NEVER become a standard in contracts. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What difference does it make if you go home now or later? |
I am hired on a montly salary. If any employer in this situation asks me for an hourly rate besides being related to overtime, I refuse to give a figure or report any figure. A monthly salary at 2,000,000 should be just that. If I worked only 2 weeks, and it was understood it would be prorated, then I accept that.
However, at no time have I taken a day's pay in China or Korea. I would never agree to this. However, transportation and commuting fees are not extra income. Chances are, schools won't care if you walked to school instead of using money they gave. It simply won't be accounted for. A higher "ticket" item, like airfare is a completely different story. That's about half your monthly salary, whereas bus fare is only 900 (when I was there).
| Quote: |
| The OP did say he will be going home, just not right now |
If he doesn't have to sign a new contract and submit it to the immigration office, then I would support this. In that case, he wouldn't have a second employer legally.
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A new contract is irrelevant to the point, as it's not mentioned in his first contract.
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| He's only asking for what was agreed upon in the contract. |
The agreement is only based on a 1 year plan. You come to Korea, you teach, you go home. It doesn't account for you coming to Korea, leaving, re-entering for another year (with a new school), etc...
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The agreement is based on 1 year of work with airfare paid in and out of the country. It does not specify when airfare needs to be obtained.
By this logic, someone who wants to come a month early to get a feel of Korea before teaching shouldn't have their airfare paid either.
| koreatimes wrote: |
Why aren't you arguing for collecting pension then? You seem to be ok with waiting for pension. The airfare home should be looked at as the same thing. The intent is for you to get airfare to Korea, and then airfare home. 1 + 1 = 2, not 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. If you are going to do that, then why don't you argue for 1 trip to Korea + 1 trip home from the first school + 1 trip back from the second school + 1 trip home = 4 while not leaving Korea altogether? It will be like a second severance.
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It is likely that is already happening in a way. The job he got probably didn't include airfare. He probably got better pay because they didn't have to pay airfare. That's the money that would have otherwise gone to airfare right in his pocket. Are you saying he shouldn't get that either?
| koreatimes wrote: |
I think if you asked any employer for a second severance you would be looked at as crazy and greedy. |
Very bad analogy. A better one would be asking for 1 severance that was in your contract. That would sound fair and reasonable. |
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Bootsanator
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| The first contract never addressed a second school. |
Correct.
So why does it make a difference if I go to another school or not? |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| A new contract is irrelevant to the point, as it's not mentioned in his first contract. |
Yes it is, and the contract doesn't have to spell out everything in the teacher's life. One part about law is that you cannot expect the other party to do something impossible. There was no way for the school to know the teacher would stay in the country.
The contract they signed pertained to 1 year and 1 year only. If they wanted to get paid for airfare regardless if they stay in the country or leave, then they are the ones who should have added it in the contract. The employer wouldn't know and therefore couldn't be expected.
I don't know how much simpler to put it. Either you get it or you don't.
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| It does not specify when airfare needs to be obtained. |
It doesn't have to. Immigration office has rules to follow regarding this. The school reports the teacher, and then the teacher has to leave or change the status of their visa. It's clearly there.
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| someone who wants to come a month early to get a feel of Korea before teaching shouldn't have their airfare paid either. |
No, because the teacher is bound to the visa. They should have the right to the airfare. After their visa is up, then they are not and must leave. This is very different. The teacher is allowed to enter the country early by virtue of the visa entry dates.
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| Are you saying he shouldn't get that either? |
I already explained this. A salary is a regular payment. Airfare is only a one time deal coming and going. You don't regularly get paid in a year to enter and leave the country.
It wasn't an analogy, it was estimating the costs.
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| A better one would be asking for 1 severance that was in your contract. That would sound fair and reasonable. |
My understanding is that he already got what he was owed. The airfare is about half of the severance and the second school would be saving the other half. It's a comparison, not an analogy. An analogy would have been more like, "Asking for airfare for 2 flights out of Korea is like Spock beaming up in two places at the same time on the Enterprise." |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Bootsanator wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| The first contract never addressed a second school. |
Correct.
So why does it make a difference if I go to another school or not? |
I have said this a million times.
BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE AGREED TO THIS IF THEY HAD KNOWN YOU WERE STAYING. THE CONTRACT REPRESENTS ONLY 1 YEAR IN KOREA, AND THEN YOU LEAVE.
How many more times do you need to see it? Do you ask for 2 return flights when you go on vacation? Geez. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Koreatimes' argument seems to be that you're making some kind of contract with Korea by signing a contract with a Korean employer.
Back to the contract: do I need to show you the definition of the word "return" again? |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Bootsanator wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| The first contract never addressed a second school. |
Correct.
So why does it make a difference if I go to another school or not? |
I have said this a million times.
BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE AGREED TO THIS IF THEY HAD KNOWN YOU WERE STAYING. THE CONTRACT REPRESENTS ONLY 1 YEAR IN KOREA, AND THEN YOU LEAVE.
How many more times do you need to see it? Do you ask for 2 return flights when you go on vacation? Geez. |
Contracts are based on what you agreed to, now what you would have agreed to. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Koreatimes' argument seems to be that you're making some kind of contract with Korea by signing a contract with a Korean employer. |
No, I am saying the employer doesn't know what the employee will do. If you work for a company and they agree to provide you with a company car because you don't have one, then when you get one, do you still feel entitled to the company car? Can the company take it back?
The purpose of the company car was to take you to work and back. Now that you have one, should you still be allowed access to the company car?
If it is in the contract, sure. However, there is nothing in the contract that says the employer must pay regardless if the teacher stays in the country. This is something teachers would need to have added, since they are the ones who would know if they are staying or returning.
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| do I need to show you the definition of the word "return" again? |
Returning doesn't mean visit or stay. That's how you are using it in context. |
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