|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
 Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE TRAGEDY OF KIDS BEING PUSHED SO HARD AND HAVING TO STUDY SO MUCH (ALBEIT OFTEN NOT OPTIMAL) THAT THEY KILL FAMILY MEMBERS OR JUMP FROM ROOFS AND DIE AROUND TESTING TIME.
And steel, if you've taught kids here, you will know as well as I do that they spend too many hours studying, they study sub optimaly (In english at least) and that they are exhibiting indicators of being over stressed in classes.
Another example of the apologists derailing threads |
I didn't bring sports up at all. It was one of the "bashers" who brought it up.
| Quote: |
| I also see it in sports as well. I see boxers train their butts off for hours and hours a day then go home and eat a bowl of rice and kimchi or ramen to cut weight. It boggles my mind. Even some of the basic knowledge possessed by highschool wrestlers in the US are unknown to professional athletes in Korea. Korean boxers also don't incorporate modern polymetric exercises that are internationally accepted by other boxers/trainers as a conditioning method. It's strange how backwards Korea seems in so many aspects despite its huge advances in tech. |
No one objected to this being "off-topic". Of course no one did because it was supporting "their" viewpoint.
Take Fermentation to task, not me. He brought it up. Or is it not about being on or off-topic, but about agreeing with an anti-Korean viewpoint? Frankly the record would indicate that.
| Quote: |
| Sounds like you were jealous of the hockey players at your HS. No matter your accusations, they did a lot more academically than ANY Korean athletes do. |
What do you know about this? Evidence? You know what kind of academics Korean athletes are involved in?
The Hockey players were great, they brought prestige to our school. I wasn't in classes with too many of them. But let's be real about things and what was going on there.
| Quote: |
That's funny to me.
I watch Korean baseball when I get a chance to but I'll never watch MLB. Korean leagues are just more entertaining- it's like watching a game of Tee-ball. There are so many errors and bad plays; not like watching those boring machines in the MLB. |
The depth is not there in the KBO, it is sometimes painful to watch.
But the national team is solid, as evidenced by its record in the WBC.
Japan has won it both times, with its fundamental disciplined approach. Time and time again people would comment on the failure of the U.S. team to play "the right way." Happened with USA Basketball too, the players lacked teamwork and fundamentals. That's why the championship team this team was created with fundamentals in mind, not just superstars.
| Quote: |
| You're wrong about public universities and athletic funding. As for Texas, and football isn't an Olympic sport which is where you started (and failed so went off on this tangent), that's a community decision, not a federal government one, and is in no way comparable. |
Public Universities receive money from their state governments. Public Universities spend money on having top-flight athletic programs.
Yeah that's right, we have our own government sponsored athlete mills.
College scholarships are given to athletes in many sports- Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Swimming, Tennis, Gymnastics, Track & Field, etc. etc.
And do you really think the athletes are doing the studying themselves and not taking blow off classes and having their grades massaged?
As for Texas Football, so if a local government decides to turn its taxpayer funded school into an athletics mill that's okay, but it's wrong for the Federal government to do so?
This smacks of the subtle American bigotry that manifests itself in sports. You see it in Little League Baseball when they'll list the match as Copa Blanca, FL vs. Japan. Implying that it's some little town in America vs. the best kids in Japan. When in fact the Japanese team is another team from a town who competed against a bunch of other Japanese Little League teams. You see it in the Olympics too. Whenever their athletes win its because they are from athlete factories and pumped full of steroids. Never mind that our athletes are also roided out concoctions too. There is some sort of subtle bigotry going on here. |
University athletic departments are funded separately. Tax money is not supporting them. You don't know what you're talking about.
Texans love football. The big city teams turn out players who go on to Division 1 football and even to the NFL. But the teams that Texas football is based on, like Permian, rarely have players that earn scholarships at big time universities. They just plain out-work, out-hit, out-hustle and out-play their opponents. They're learning lessons a lot of people never catch on to.
As for student-athletes, again you don't know what you're talking about. Take for example, one of the U.S. woman's figure skaters. Went to class, took mostly AP courses, planned on attending Stanford or an Ivy League school and qualified for the Olympics. And there are many, many, many more like her. Eric Heiden, the greatest speed skater of all-time, is an orthopedic surgeon.
What bigotry? The schedule reads North Oldham LL, La Grange, Kentucky, against Ching-Tang LL, Kaohsiung, Taiwan.
So the communist bloc countries didn't have athlete factories and have most of their athletes on steroids? Korea and China don't have similar factories today?
Let's see the Korean baseball champions play the Cardinals. Let's see Yonsei or KU play Kentucky or North Carolina.
Enough said. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE TRAGEDY OF KIDS BEING PUSHED SO HARD AND HAVING TO STUDY SO MUCH (ALBEIT OFTEN NOT OPTIMAL) THAT THEY KILL FAMILY MEMBERS OR JUMP FROM ROOFS AND DIE AROUND TESTING TIME.
And steel, if you've taught kids here, you will know as well as I do that they spend too many hours studying, they study sub optimaly (In english at least) and that they are exhibiting indicators of being over stressed in classes.
Another example of the apologists derailing threads |
I didn't bring sports up at all. It was one of the "bashers" who brought it up.
| Quote: |
| I also see it in sports as well. I see boxers train their butts off for hours and hours a day then go home and eat a bowl of rice and kimchi or ramen to cut weight. It boggles my mind. Even some of the basic knowledge possessed by highschool wrestlers in the US are unknown to professional athletes in Korea. Korean boxers also don't incorporate modern polymetric exercises that are internationally accepted by other boxers/trainers as a conditioning method. It's strange how backwards Korea seems in so many aspects despite its huge advances in tech. |
No one objected to this being "off-topic". Of course no one did because it was supporting "their" viewpoint.
Take Fermentation to task, not me. He brought it up. Or is it not about being on or off-topic, but about agreeing with an anti-Korean viewpoint? Frankly the record would indicate that.
| Quote: |
| Sounds like you were jealous of the hockey players at your HS. No matter your accusations, they did a lot more academically than ANY Korean athletes do. |
What do you know about this? Evidence? You know what kind of academics Korean athletes are involved in?
The Hockey players were great, they brought prestige to our school. I wasn't in classes with too many of them. But let's be real about things and what was going on there.
| Quote: |
That's funny to me.
I watch Korean baseball when I get a chance to but I'll never watch MLB. Korean leagues are just more entertaining- it's like watching a game of Tee-ball. There are so many errors and bad plays; not like watching those boring machines in the MLB. |
The depth is not there in the KBO, it is sometimes painful to watch.
But the national team is solid, as evidenced by its record in the WBC.
Japan has won it both times, with its fundamental disciplined approach. Time and time again people would comment on the failure of the U.S. team to play "the right way." Happened with USA Basketball too, the players lacked teamwork and fundamentals. That's why the championship team this team was created with fundamentals in mind, not just superstars.
| Quote: |
| You're wrong about public universities and athletic funding. As for Texas, and football isn't an Olympic sport which is where you started (and failed so went off on this tangent), that's a community decision, not a federal government one, and is in no way comparable. |
Public Universities receive money from their state governments. Public Universities spend money on having top-flight athletic programs.
Yeah that's right, we have our own government sponsored athlete mills.
College scholarships are given to athletes in many sports- Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Swimming, Tennis, Gymnastics, Track & Field, etc. etc.
And do you really think the athletes are doing the studying themselves and not taking blow off classes and having their grades massaged?
As for Texas Football, so if a local government decides to turn its taxpayer funded school into an athletics mill that's okay, but it's wrong for the Federal government to do so?
This smacks of the subtle American bigotry that manifests itself in sports. You see it in Little League Baseball when they'll list the match as Copa Blanca, FL vs. Japan. Implying that it's some little town in America vs. the best kids in Japan. When in fact the Japanese team is another team from a town who competed against a bunch of other Japanese Little League teams. You see it in the Olympics too. Whenever their athletes win its because they are from athlete factories and pumped full of steroids. Never mind that our athletes are also roided out concoctions too. There is some sort of subtle bigotry going on here. |
University athletic departments are funded separately. Tax money is not supporting them. You don't know what you're talking about.
Texans love football. The big city teams turn out players who go on to Division 1 football and even to the NFL. But the teams that Texas football is based on, like Permian, rarely have players that earn scholarships at big time universities. They just plain out-work, out-hit, out-hustle and out-play their opponents. They're learning lessons a lot of people never catch on to.
As for student-athletes, again you don't know what you're talking about. Take for example, one of the U.S. woman's figure skaters. Went to class, took mostly AP courses, planned on attending Stanford or an Ivy League school and qualified for the Olympics. And there are many, many, many more like her. Eric Heiden, the greatest speed skater of all-time, is an orthopedic surgeon.
What bigotry? The schedule reads North Oldham LL, La Grange, Kentucky, against Ching-Tang LL, Kaohsiung, Taiwan.
So the communist bloc countries didn't have athlete factories and have most of their athletes on steroids? Korea and China don't have similar factories today?
Let's see the Korean baseball champions play the Cardinals. Let's see Yonsei or KU play Kentucky or North Carolina.
Enough said. |
First off funding is interconnected. You gain funds from one area, that allows you to move money to other areas. Do you seriously believe that boosters and lobbyists are not involved in all areas of college athletics?
Right, its clean and dandy. After all I've never heard of College programs being mired in scandal and given carte blanche by state governments. 
And there are many student athletes who had their grades fixed and had their schools work their grades and test scores smudged. Seriously, are you claiming that grades in College and High School athletics are free from corruption?
As for the Little League World Series thing, look how this story is written
http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-littleleague
or this one
http://seattle.sbnation.com/2011/8/27/2388159/little-league-world-series-2011-schedule-live-coverage-tv-information
Yeah, it's tiny Huntington Beach vs. Japan. Except it isn't.
As for sports in Korea, I'm not saying its clean, but to suggest that there's no government sponsorship of athletics back home or that their isn't just as much of a factory approach is silly.
We did have Korea play the U.S. in the WBC. Korea, Japan, and Cuba all faired better than the U.S. Time and time again the commentators mentioned the U.S. team's lack of fundamentals and lack of heart.
atwood, could you please open your eyes to the possibility that U.S. athletics isn't a bunch of neighborhood kids playing sports in between hitting the books and defeating Roided, factory monsters from Asia and the former Soviet bloc.
I mean the steroid scandals seem to be hitting American sports pretty hard.
Korea can't do right. If they win, it's because they are factory farmed. If they lose, it's because their system of training or whatever is inferior.
Meanwhile if American's win, it's because of the greatness of the system. If they lose, it's because someone else's athletics system is unfair.
I, for one, find that illogical.
| Quote: |
Niet, steelrails.
You were the first one to bring up the comparisons to America |
Nope you were, look at page 1 of the thread and your post where you said and I quote
| Quote: |
Koreans still do not understand quality over quantity and long term view perspective etc.
Quantity vs quality. Some of our parents at my school have complained that I only give ten keywords per week for word test. They complained that Korean teachers give 80 words per week and they want me to give more. I explained that rather than rote mesmerise 80 words that the kids will forget by the next week, I prefer them to learn in detail, ten - fifteen key words which are the most pertinant to understanding the texts we study each week. We translate them, make sentences with them, learn any other forms we can use with them etc. I explained that EVEN THEN, sometimes in word test, they only really show they know around 70% of the words, so until they can get 100% on ten words, I AM NOT upping the ammount of words they study.
Why give them the extra stress, extra study time etc when IT WILL SHOW ZERO RETURN?!
Long term view. A personal antitdote (yes the mistake was deliberate.)
I was the class clown all through high school. Psycologically bullied from age 11 - 14 also. Did drugs, drank, stole, got arrested etc. Pulled down only 4 grade d, one grade c and one grade e in my final high school exams. By Korean standards I was a write off, a failiure. Went to collge, got kicked out as I didn't like the accounting classes of the vocational (non university) business course I was taking and went to the arcades during that time instead. Lived in social security paid shared houses, went to juvie for 6 months aged 17 for gbh on a guy who was ten years older and who started the fight in the first place.
Upon release, got my act together and worked in insurance sales, did very well. Went to college, excelled. Started uni at age 23 and again, excelled.
Had I grown up in Korea it is highly likely I would've jumped off a building or ended up with zero mobility. |
Sounds like a comparison to me.
| Quote: |
| as well as the subject of sports - in post ten in fact. |
I will give you the sports, though it was more in the context of pressure, rather than athletic systems. But that is certainly enough to warrant it as a jumping of for fermentation's point.
| Quote: |
Hah, you don't actually think old Steelrails here is capable of engaging in a discussion related to critiques of Korea and Korean cultural norms WITHOUT finding some way to inform us all that while it isn't necessarily ideal or perfect, things could be worse. They could relate to AMERICAN cultural norms and behaviors, which are far worse and suspect in every circumstance.
He's just got it in his head that poor, poor Korea, having done SO MUCH for us ungrateful FTs, is unfairly beat upon and mocked and trashed [especially its DISGUSTING, VILE, SICKENING food] by all of us and it just isn't fair, especially when so many of us come from the heathen land of the devil America and how could ANYONE think that Korea is inferior in any way to THAT place? I mean, do you SEE what those people do/say/think/know/eat?
He gets some kind of psychological kick out of trashing his home country while abroad. I know a few people like that, can't really figure them out but I think part of it is a need, a desperate yearning, to be seen and understood as 'sophisticated' enough to NOT be a native-country-lovin' redneck fool. They think insulting--oops, I meant 'critically analyzing'-- their homeland to foreigners somehow makes them come off as cosmopolitan and advanced in their multicultural, globalized thinking. Plus it aids with acculturating themselves with the locals ['you hate the American president/military/foreign policy/music/foods/cultural imperialism/etc? Me too, and I'm American! It's a disgrace, let me tell you!' And he's off and running, loving all the while the 'you're not like most Americans' vibe he gets for his arguments. 'No' he thinks. 'I'm not like THOSE people. I have a wider perspective.'
It's hopeless dealing with him, but he is amusing in his consistency. |
How am I trashing my country? I am telling you to take the blinders off.
Remember I do not cast the first stones. It is people who rip on the place here and say "this would never happen back home" and then seem to get their panties in a twist when someone says "well back home it DOES happen".
| Quote: |
| Hah, you don't actually think old Steelrails here is capable of engaging in a discussion related to critiques of Korea and Korean cultural norms WITHOUT finding some way to inform us all that while it isn't necessarily ideal or perfect, things could be worse. They could relate to AMERICAN cultural norms and behaviors, which are far worse and suspect in every circumstance. |
No one said they are worse, just sometimes they are just as bad.
Can you not distinguish how that is different? I hope that that is what I am trying to get across with this.
I just don't get the hate down. First, people come on here complaining about being stereotyped and a constant stream of negativity and so on towards foreigners, and then proceed to do exactly the same thing about Koreans. If you find The Korea Times hatedown, and Korea Sentry's forum despicable, and ignorant ajosshis making you want to bash your own head in as well as theirs, then why engage in exactly the same style of discourse?
Then we have the claims of "It's different in Korea" followed by complaints of someone trying to counteract that argument. Sounds a lot like some ajosshi who can't tolerate his opinions being disagreed with to me.
I mean if someone had switched the words "Korea" and "Korean" in one of these posts with "U.S." and someone had pointed out how the same phenomenon happened in Korea, wouldn't you be in agreement? Would you be saying, "Why does someone always bring up what goes wrong in Korea when people are bashing the U.S.?".
It's about being fair.
| Quote: |
| Nah he's not an American hater at all. Just has emotional blinders at times when it comes to Korea I think and takes it a tad too far, gets oversensitive and sees critisizing as bashing (sometimes it is, but I certainly wasn't bashing in my first post in this thread.) |
Thank you Floating. I think...
And that 5 Ways... post was great!
What I hope most of all with these comparisons and what not, is to get people thinking, using their imaginations, and believe it or not, bringing people together.
If we realize that both cultures make the same mistakes and are driven by the same failures of human nature, that should enable greater understanding and cooperation. If a similar phenomenon happens in our culture, then we can look at it and gain insight into why it happens in their culture.
However if we ascribe certain failures of human nature to some people and not being there in others, well in my experience that tends to lead to discord, suspicion, and enmity. People tend not to like it when other people do that to their culture. I know we can't stand it when Koreans do it to us. I simply can't accept that it's okay for someone to bash Korean people, but it's not okay for Korean people to bash them. Of course it seems the best course is not to bash other people (Or if 'complaining' to not object to others 'complaining' about them). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
alljokingaside
Joined: 17 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Steelrails"]
| Quote: |
Koreans
| Quote: |
| Memerise 40 or so objects which give you the tools to spell the majority of words - or memorise 171,476 objects - which is smarter? |
Sorry, but I need to memorize to, two, and too. Only 'too' is fairly unambiguous as to how it would be pronounced. Down to 37. What about 'new'? Could sound like sew or knew. Down to 34. 'Wash' could sound like 'sash' or how it actually sounds...etc. etc.
Do you see my point? English IS a language you memorize. You just don't realize it because you grew up with it.
| Quote: |
| Skills of deduction and analyzation and comparison are still not valued over rote memorization of every object / idea / fact in the world. |
I see little back home that convinces me that people are magically more deductive than over here. Sorry way too many idiots back home.
You do realize that up until about 1960, the American education system was quite similar to the Korean one? Rote memorization, learning "big thinkers" and reading "the classics", then standardized tests that determined where you went for college. Then you got our new education and instead of getting better, our generation actually declined in academics and intelligence and college became dumbed down and watered down.
Now as for the issue at hand, clearly the kid was a nut and so was his mom.
Now I know you hate it when someone mentions "Back home..." Why this is so irritating I have no idea...After all it becomes valid and relevant the second someone tries to make such phenomenon as being "special to Korea" ...
Anyways, back home how many kids are pressured to do well in sports? How many Texas football kids are hounded by their parents?
When Vince Lombardi says "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." we cheer. When some wet blanket mom tries to take away trophies and make both teams the winner we groan. You have kids spending hours in rehab because they blew out their knee playing sports too much. And what do some of them say "Him playing sports is what's going to get him into college." All of this over some game with a ball...
Now I think both systems need fixing while keeping what makes them good. |
Well, first, yes- English, like any and all languages, require memorization. Memorization is necessary, but insufficient. You also need to know some of the basic rules, especially considering the breadth separating Korean and English syntax. English grammar is spatial in nature while Korean usually uses markers, for example one. Subordinate clauses, something pretty important in the language, is non-existent in Korean, for example two.
Additionally, products of rote memorization extinguishes. Ebbinghaus did work on this way back. While re-education (and not the Maoist kind) reclaims those gains fairly quickly, remembering phrases still can be useless when the learner's introduced to a novel situation where the crystallized phrase fails. Or, worse, can express the wrong sentiment when applied incorrectly. At the very least, if you've developed a solid basis in grammar, you have a better chance at express what you mean, albeit in a rough manner.
(But yeah, without vocab, as with any language, you're dead before you begin.)
==
Sports, beauty pageants, grades- same thing. If you've abusing the kid past breaking point, you deserve what you get. And, if truthful- starvation, baseball bats, golf clubs, solitary confinement, emotional abuse, pressure- that was more than anyone could/should bare. It's almost like beating and starvin a dog every day of its life, then acting surprised that it bit you. I hope the kid A) get's a light/no sentence and B) psychological help. Like, that kid has problems, will have more and they'll need to be addressed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Look steelrails, okay, in some instances there are the same examples back home - STILL we are discussing the impact of too muchpressure and suboptimal stuy techniques in Korea and how this leads every year to a spate of suicides and family homicides.
But noone has been able to discuss this (I've tried) as the whole thread is taken up with Korea vs America. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chrisinkorea2011
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
im truly saddened for the boy, who im sure suffered alot. The mother who suffered maybe in her own way or couldnt control it, and the boy's family for perhaps not knowing about it? My only question is that how comes no one else from the boy's family questioned the whereabouts of the mother after so long?
regardless its a dang shame that things like this happen all over the world, let alone here in korea. When heads butt together and stress takes over people, it causes bad things to happen and breakdowns occur. I hope the best for the victims of all of this tragedy. perhaps some kind of peace can be found? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
First off funding is interconnected. You gain funds from one area, that allows you to move money to other areas. Do you seriously believe that boosters and lobbyists are not involved in all areas of college athletics?
Right, its clean and dandy. After all I've never heard of College programs being mired in scandal and given carte blanche by state governments. Rolling Eyes
And there are many student athletes who had their grades fixed and had their schools work their grades and test scores smudged. Seriously, are you claiming that grades in College and High School athletics are free from corruption?
As for the Little League World Series thing, look how this story is written
http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-littleleague
or this one
http://seattle.sbnation.com/2011/8/27/2388159/little-league-world-series-2011-schedule-live-coverage-tv-information
Yeah, it's tiny Huntington Beach vs. Japan. Except it isn't.
As for sports in Korea, I'm not saying its clean, but to suggest that there's no government sponsorship of athletics back home or that their isn't just as much of a factory approach is silly.
We did have Korea play the U.S. in the WBC. Korea, Japan, and Cuba all faired better than the U.S. Time and time again the commentators mentioned the U.S. team's lack of fundamentals and lack of heart.
atwood, could you please open your eyes to the possibility that U.S. athletics isn't a bunch of neighborhood kids playing sports in between hitting the books and defeating Roided, factory monsters from Asia and the former Soviet bloc.
I mean the steroid scandals seem to be hitting American sports pretty hard.
Korea can't do right. If they win, it's because they are factory farmed. If they lose, it's because their system of training or whatever is inferior.
Meanwhile if American's win, it's because of the greatness of the system. If they lose, it's because someone else's athletics system is unfair.
I, for one, find that illogical. |
What is illogical is your argument. Through great exaggeration, you set up strawmen and then knock them down. That may fool a few, but not many. I've never claimed the system is pure.
As for university funding, they don't just move that money around willy-nilly. Your other statements there are off-topic.
Your claim that many student-athletes have their grades fixed is baseless. Some have their grades fixed, but this just goes to prove MY point--they are expected to be students, unlike Korean athletes. Coaches, professors, even university presidents have lost their jobs when cheating comes to light.
The WBC isn't a valid example because it doesn't matter to the U.S. players. They are major leaguers who know that they've got a long season ahead. The owners have to have their arms twisted to let their playes participate.
For Cuba, this is all they've got to play for, and it can be an audition for the majors if they're thinking of defecting. In Korea, it's nationalism, financial gain and getting out of military service. For American players, it's just one big yawn.
But you didn't answer my question of who would win between the Cardinals and the Korean baseball champs. Why not?
As for the LL reporting, you're grasping at straws--"The U.S. team...Japan." What's the difference? The other use of Japan was in a quotation. In the other article, "in the international game, Mexico beat Japan." Such bigotry!
Your problem continues to be that you mistakenly believe everything is the same everywhere. It just ain't so, and sports in the U.S. are quite different than sports in Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The WBC isn't a valid example because it doesn't matter to the U.S. players. They are major leaguers who know that they've got a long season ahead. The owners have to have their arms twisted to let their playes participate. |
It mattered to the players who played. Some took it as a pretty big deal.
The Venezuelan and Dominican teams were filled with major leaguers. The Japanese were without Matsui, but an Ichiro who viewed the competition as a big deal played.
| Quote: |
| But you didn't answer my question of who would win between the Cardinals and the Korean baseball champs. Why not? |
I'll answer it. I'd take the Cardinals 90-10 in a seven game series against the Samsung Lion. However I'd give the Cardinals a 60-40 chance against the Korean national team.
That being said, anything can happen in baseball. The small scrappy team can win if it plays fundamentally sound and gets a hot hurler or two. It's happened plenty of times in the playoffs where the intensity gets ratcheted up.
But again, it goes back to bigotry and prejudice. The Koreans NEVER win because they were better. It's always because the Americans did bad, or that the Koreans use athletics factories or blah blah blah.
| Quote: |
| Your problem continues to be that you mistakenly believe everything is the same everywhere. It just ain't so, and sports in the U.S. are quite different than sports in Korea. |
True sports are different. They are not the same, but there are similarities. When you say there's no government factories, sorry but there are. The high schools and the universities are athletics factories if I have ever seen one.
| Quote: |
| As for university funding, they don't just move that money around willy-nilly. Your other statements there are off-topic. |
Really? They don't cook the books at universities when it comes to money? Really?
You're talking about the same universities that seem to have scandal after scandal every year? The same system that gave us Penn St. and Joe Paterno and child rape? The same system that's given us Rich Rodriguez, UNLV, Miami, The Fab Five, Jim Tressel, Southern Methodist, etc. etc.? The purity of American sports that gave us Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, BALCO, Marion Jones, etc.
| Quote: |
| That may fool a few, but not many. I've never claimed the system is pure. |
Then lets agree that one is a government factory farm while the other is a corporate-booster factory farm and that both are probably dripping in roids. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Floating World wrote: |
Look steelrails, okay, in some instances there are the same examples back home - STILL we are discussing the impact of too muchpressure and suboptimal stuy techniques in Korea and how this leads every year to a spate of suicides and family homicides.
But noone has been able to discuss this (I've tried) as the whole thread is taken up with Korea vs America. |
What can you say, mom was a nut and the kid snapped. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
Korea's baseball team seems to be doing pretty well. Has done better than the U.S. team.
Golds in Judo, weightlifting, swimming, speed skating, archery, etc.
As well as dominating the LPGA.
|
Honestly I don't follow most sports other than boxing so I can't really comment but, are Korean athletes of those sports incorporating new training methods and technology or are they just going the old school way of "training harder?" Because some areas of sports Koreans do incorporate newer methods, which is a good thing obviously. I have never stated Korea sucks at sports, they need to use better methods do be more competitive. Unless you have evidence that Korea is doing well despite their stubbornness to "working harder," you have no argument against me.
I can tell you in boxing, "training harder" isn't working for Koreans. As for judo, although they are still very competitive, Korean and Japan are doing worse every year in international competitions due to their adherence to tradition and the old-fashioned methods of training. Ironically the Koreans generally do better than the Japanese.
In sports that have more attention and funding, people realize they need to actually look for help overseas and try out newer science based training methods than simply putting more hours in the gym. But I guess what I don't understand with local athletes and fighters is that nobody enlightens them of newer research despite they're being a plethora of it for free on the internet.
| Quote: |
| Take Fermentation to task, not me. He brought it up. |
I only brought up sports to provide another example of the inefficiency of Korean work ethic. If you didn't want to fill two pages of sports related posts you didn't have to respond to my post. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is something more here than pressure to do well on a test. Kids don't kill their parents over pressure from a test.
If you wanna compare sports just look at where the money is made. It's in the U.S.A that's where the pro leagues are that's where the best players play.
Don't think for a second if Korean players were so good that scouts wouldn't find them they found Park Chan Ho and the 11 others from South Korea. MLB contracts restrict big name players from playing in the WBC and Olympics. Can you think of any team from Korea that could go to the US and play a 162 game season and win a pennant or wild card spot?
The U.S only slipped once in basketball by the way. We've won the gold in every Olympics except 2. And one of those was a huge conspiracy.
110 medals(U.S) to 31(S. Korea) in the Olympics is huge gap.
America has a sports culture where Korea has a "if a Korean plays the sport on a global level then we'll support culture".
University's like Duke, Alabama, Auburn, USC, Florida State, North Carolina etc...generate enough money through tickets and merchandise to pay for their programs easily. But other schools like mine, University of Tennessee at Martin has programs that are funded by the state because they don't generate enough money to pay for everything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SPORTS aside, I wonder if anyone has any info or links to theories of language acquisition that shed light on the study hard vs study smart debate, again, not sports, but with relevance to ESL? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
steelrails how about shutting up and getting this thing back on topic. you are becoming incredibly annoying, what are you calenders sock or what?
i feel sorry for the kid being abused as badly as he was, hope he gets some kind of help which in Korea I'd doubt will happen.
Problem is there are so many more kids like this who have been abused by their parents especially their mothers over grades etc and something needs to be done before we read more about these incidents.
some days i swear korean mothers are the spawn from hell |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| 110 medals(U.S) to 31(S. Korea) in the Olympics is huge gap. |
Not when you compare the population of the two countries.
| Quote: |
| Don't think for a second if Korean players were so good that scouts wouldn't find them they found Park Chan Ho and the 11 others from South Korea. MLB contracts restrict big name players from playing in the WBC and Olympics. Can you think of any team from Korea that could go to the US and play a 162 game season and win a pennant or wild card spot? |
I think the national team at worst would finish 74-88, and if it has a good year and a god streak could finish 88-74, qualify for the wild card and then anything can happen with shortened rotations and tighter games where "the little things" make more of a difference.
Baseball is such a strange game. The Korean national team would have a 50-50 chance of beating say, The Rangers or the Yankees (less of a chance against the Phillies and that rotation)or Cardinals in a one game series. In a seven game series that would fall to about 60-40. If they were to play a season in the same division then the odds of them winning would fall to about 10%. But baseball is such a fickle sport.
Is Japan winning back to back WBCs a fluke? Was the talent level on Japan higher than on the U.S. team? What about the Cubans and the Venezuelans and the Dominicans? They certainly seemed to care and brought good talent.
As for the claim that the U.S. didn't send top players (or any other country for that matter) let's look at the rosters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_World_Baseball_Classic_rosters#Venezuela
Braun, Granderson, Pedroia, Longoria, McCann, Wright, Youkilis, Oswalt, Broxton, Peavy, Shields.
I believe that such a team would either be called A)All-Star or B)World Series contender.
As for basketball I was also including FIBA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_World_Championship
Again and again you heard about American teams "lacking fundamentals" and teamwork. The most recent national teams attempted to rectify that looking at players who brought certain skills and roles rather than just big names.
========================================
As for the kid, does this reflect on culture? Does a kid spraying his neighborhood with a gun reflect culture? Maybe to some extent.
At the same time I think somewhere in America there is a (non-Asian) parent who is obsessive over their child's grade and somewhere in Korea there is a kid fantasizing about what they could do with a K-2 and 1000 rounds. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Your last post and the fact that you ended it with
| Quote: |
========================================
As for the kid, does this reflect on culture? Does a kid spraying his neighborhood with a gun reflect culture? Maybe to some extent.
At the same time I think somewhere in America there is a (non-Asian) parent who is obsessive over their child's grade and somewhere in Korea there is a kid fantasizing about what they could do with a K-2 and 1000 rounds. |
Shows evidence of a pathology. The need to do this is a pathology and I hope one day you'll come around to realising it.
In the meantime is there any possibilty we can get BACK ON TOPIC, which some of us I believe were trying to have a debae about huge study pressure and workloads vs lesser but smarter, more directed study - with respect to the impact on learning results and kids not killing themselves? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The WBC isn't a valid example because it doesn't matter to the U.S. players. They are major leaguers who know that they've got a long season ahead. The owners have to have their arms twisted to let their playes participate. |
It mattered to the players who played. Some took it as a pretty big deal.
The Venezuelan and Dominican teams were filled with major leaguers. The Japanese were without Matsui, but an Ichiro who viewed the competition as a big deal played.
| Quote: |
| But you didn't answer my question of who would win between the Cardinals and the Korean baseball champs. Why not? |
I'll answer it. I'd take the Cardinals 90-10 in a seven game series against the Samsung Lion. However I'd give the Cardinals a 60-40 chance against the Korean national team.
That being said, anything can happen in baseball. The small scrappy team can win if it plays fundamentally sound and gets a hot hurler or two. It's happened plenty of times in the playoffs where the intensity gets ratcheted up.
But again, it goes back to bigotry and prejudice. The Koreans NEVER win because they were better. It's always because the Americans did bad, or that the Koreans use athletics factories or blah blah blah.
| Quote: |
| Your problem continues to be that you mistakenly believe everything is the same everywhere. It just ain't so, and sports in the U.S. are quite different than sports in Korea. |
True sports are different. They are not the same, but there are similarities. When you say there's no government factories, sorry but there are. The high schools and the universities are athletics factories if I have ever seen one.
| Quote: |
| As for university funding, they don't just move that money around willy-nilly. Your other statements there are off-topic. |
Really? They don't cook the books at universities when it comes to money? Really?
You're talking about the same universities that seem to have scandal after scandal every year? The same system that gave us Penn St. and Joe Paterno and child rape? The same system that's given us Rich Rodriguez, UNLV, Miami, The Fab Five, Jim Tressel, Southern Methodist, etc. etc.? The purity of American sports that gave us Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, BALCO, Marion Jones, etc.
| Quote: |
| That may fool a few, but not many. I've never claimed the system is pure. |
Then lets agree that one is a government factory farm while the other is a corporate-booster factory farm and that both are probably dripping in roids. |
In the end, you always come around to admitting that you were wrong. No matter how you try to shift the argument, no matter how many fingers you point, you were wrong.
As for cooking the books at state universities, show some proof. As for scandal after scandal, you're showing your bias and an over-reliance on a media driven by negative news. For every scandal, there are hundreds, thousands following the rules, making a positive contribution to their schools and communities, etc.
What's the Korean equivalent to a Rhodes scholar? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
