Korean Job Discussion Forums

[cfile2]

I recently wrote a piece about suicide counselors in Korea for Yonhap. Figured I'd throw it to the Dave's ESL wolves.

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/n_feature/2011/11/22/41/4901000000AEN20111122005700315F.HTML

I have another one coming out soon about the growing pains of diversity here. Should be up in a few weeks.

Anyways, just curious to see what people think. I like criticism and I know Dave's has it in spades.

[nathanrutledge]

Good article.

[Poltergeist]

I agree. It's a difficult subject to write about effectively, but you've really been sensitive and avoided potential pitfalls.

[Swampfox10mm]

I know that a guy on here named Harpeau does counseling. Do a search on his nickname and fire him a PM if you are having difficulties due to whatever. I thinke he offers a free 30 min trial to start, or something like that.

[Julius]

Nicely written with a good lead-in.

Did they edit it for you? If so, was it an improvement or not?

[cfile2]

Thanks guys.

It does make the rounds at the copy editing desk but the changes were very minor. It had significantly more commas in it when I got it back and that was the most noticeable change.

[Poltergeist]

I've seen similar stories that were a lot less effective because the writers trusted sketchy sources and didn't do enough fact-checking. I'm glad you quoted credible people in your article, and that you avoided any description of a suicide that could be construed as glamorizing it or encouraging readers to copy it. You also avoided simplistic explanations and one-size-fits-all solutions.

[koreatimes]

If you stick your hand in a bag of apples, guess what? You will get an apple. If you do it with a sack of potatoes, you won't. Believe it or not. A Korean in Korea saying they might kill themselves? No!!! I don't believe it. It never happens in other countries.

I find this whole Korea suicide connection and data which misrepresents the truth more disturbing than the actual decision to end your life which should be yours and your decision only. However, in a Christian dominated country like Korea, I am sure there will be someone who feels the need to "save" another person and tell them what the righteous way to run their life is.

I suggest, if you want to lash out at Korea for the hardships Koreans face, you write an article about that instead of one of the symptoms of those hardships. Because frankly, I don't care about telling people how to run their lives. I do however want to improve working conditions and that in turn will affect those who fall under this "suicide watch" category and influence some people who sensationalize the act in news articles.

[Poltergeist]

I'm not seeing what KT is seeing. I don't think the author has sensationalized anything, misrepresented data or lashed out at any group of people. Quite the contrary, he's acknowledged that the data is inadequate to explain why different people in different situations might want to commit suicide. He focuses on a few personal stories and doesn't use them as the basis for generalizations about all Koreans or all anything. I don't often praise articles in the Korean media (or most foreign media either), but this is a refreshing change.

[cfile2]

If you stick your hand in a bag of apples, guess what? You will get an apple. If you do it with a sack of potatoes, you won't. Believe it or not.

LOL... what?


A Korean in Korea saying they might kill themselves? No!!! I don't believe it. It never happens in other countries.

Absolutely, it happens in other countries. But not at the rate it does in Korea. Interestingly, I had heard that Korea had the highest rate in the world for suicide. However, in the research for this article I found that there are a handful of others that are slightly higher. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) Lithuania was one of those countries.

Still though, it's a significant social issue here that deserves some measure of scrutiny.


I find this whole Korea suicide connection and data which misrepresents the truth more disturbing than the actual decision to end your life which should be yours and your decision only. However, in a Christian dominated country like Korea, I am sure there will be someone who feels the need to "save" another person and tell them what the righteous way to run their life is.

How do you feel the data was misrepresented in the article? Also, this is NOT about telling people how to run their lives. And nowhere in the article is anybody telling anyone how to run their lives. It's about a group of people extending a helping hand to those who feel they need it (and seek it out).

I suggest, if you want to lash out at Korea for the hardships Koreans face, you write an article about that instead of one of the symptoms of those hardships. Because frankly, I don't care about telling people how to run their lives. I do however want to improve working conditions and that in turn will affect those who fall under this "suicide watch" category and influence some people who sensationalize the act in news articles.

I really don't see what I wrote as "lashing out." Quite the opposite really. All I ever read from major news organizations before I wrote this was about 300-400 word articles laden with statistics without context. Here I'm saying that, despite the hardships, people are feeling their way through the dark in an attempt to do something about it.

Your interpretation of it is certainly interesting to read though. Thanks for the opinion.

[Poltergeist]

I may have misinterpreted KT's post anyway. Maybe it was a poem?

[koreatimes]

[cfile2]

As I stated, the focus should be on the hardships faced before someone is considering suicide, not that actual act. When you are covering an accident, it is after the fact. If you want to prevent it, you look to the causes.


The point that I made in the article was that there are many reasons people do it. It would be ridiculous to insinuate there is one cause of suicide here. And that is what I talked to the suicide counselors about. They are credible sources. People who have been working on the problem for decades. They know what they are talking about. I'm not sure what more you expect... did you even read the entire article?


Where are your facts? Don't just reference a study or a report you gathered. Give the actual data, who is representing this so called truth you are reporting?

Again, I'm really not sure what you are asking of me here. I quoted a reliable study conducted by the OECD. The FACT is Korea has the highest rate among the OECD members. The FACT is that Korea has ONE of the highest rates of suicide in the world.


Yes, that's how a lot of misinformation and gossip gets passed around. Now, stop amplifying it in news articles until you have done the research and you don't have to "hear" about it. I hear about it too, it doesn't mean it is true.


There is not one iota of "misinformation" in the article. As I said: the FACT is that Korea has the highest suicide rate among OECD nations and that is the fact that I quoted.



It wasn't. You are missing the point. You are talking about something based on the "trending" value. People think that suicide rates are more significant in Korea than elsewhere, and therefore you want to cover this story. However, you fail to truly know the facts and are only reporting based on what you hear, not what you know.


I really would like you to make a list of the facts you think I am missing. Or rather the questions you feel were unanswered. The purpose of the article was to profile

If you admit the statistics were not given in context, why say things, like "This gives South Korea one of the highest suicide rates in the developed world", and why do you quote people who don't have the context? At least you aren't telling us in the article where and how they reached their conclusions. You are just passing their assumptions along onto the reader and then saying, "one of the highest suicide rates".


Please explain how you feel any of that is out of context. I couched those statistics into the views of experienced counselors. Reliable sources. And I even stated that the statistics failed to represent anything beyond the surface of the problem... then I spend the rest of the article explaining what they think the complexities of it are.

If you don't agree with what they are saying or there is reasonable doubt, then you shouldn't be reporting on it. If you don't see the reasonable doubt, then I ask you, where is the proof? Not what you hear, but where is the proof?

What are you asking for proof of? I really don't understand what part of the article you feel lacks enough proof.

What gives you the right to speak for them? How do you know this is true?

I'm speaking from the perspective of the counselors. They feel like they are feeling their way through the dark trying to solve a very complex problem. How do I know that and what gives me the right to speak for them? I spent several hours talking with them about it. That's how.


I wish people would take a closer look at the facts, not what others tell them and then report what they hear making it look like it is established truth. That's all.

Well... I'm not really sure if you understood what the scope of the article was. At the very least, I'm not certain what it was you were expecting. But I do appreciate the feedback. I'm not trying to attack what you based on what you are saying. Merely defending my writing and trying to understand your position. As it stands, I'm not sure what proofs you are looking for that weren't in the article.

[koreatimes]

[cfile2]

Let's see who you talked to.

Han Hyun-sun, KOREAN. (Counselor)
Ha Sang-hun, KOREAN. (Professor)

Wow, you talked to 2 people total. Your article only seems to show 1 person who is a counselor, and they are Korean. Have you ever heard of variance? http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED436571&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED436571

I talked to three counselors actually. Han Hyun-sun, Ha Sang-hun (both a professor and the man in charge of LifeLine. He has experience as a counselor), and Han Na another counselor quoted at the end of the article.

You seem to be implying I should have talked to someone who wasn't Korean. What benefit would that have had to an article about suicide in Korea? I don't think much.

Repeating a false or true statement doesn't make it any more true. This is a common logical fallacy. Where are these facts you like to capitalize? You asked if I read your article. Did you read the facts or just copy what someone else told you?

This is where I don't think you can be satisified. I pulled the data from a report done by the OECD. I used their study. Short of conducting my own study, I don't see how I could satisfy your standards of "fact".

Huh? Now you lost it. You want me to provide non-existent facts which would have proven your claims in your article? That is for you to prove. Another logical fallacy. The onus is on the one making the claim. If I said Korea has the most ____, then it would be for me to prove. I wouldn't say, prove it for me, "I would really like you to provide proof to back me up".

You misunderstood (or rather I miscommunicated) what I was driving at here. I guess what I was trying to get at is, what do you think I'm missing. What questions do you feel were unanswered.

It wasn't a request for you to make up statistics for me.


Which counselors? I only see one. The other is a professor.

Well, three people, and all three had counseling experience.

You talked to 2 people, you did not talk to people who attempted suicide. You don't know what those people were thinking. Anything those 2 people you talked to is speculation, and it doesn't prove anything. At best it accounts for 2 people that may have attempted suicide, ONE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO HELP (THE COUNSELOR) AND THE OTHER WHO TEACHES (THE PROFESSOR). When did you ever talk with the people who attempted suicide to better understand why they attempted it? When did you ever talk to people who contemplated suicide?

Again, I think you are misunderstanding the scope and purpose of the article. It was meant to look specifically at suicide counselors and their position on the issue. Regardless of whether you think they are right or wrong, it is what they think. And I think I did a decent job reporting their perspective of it.

Were I to do an article about suicide as an issue more broadly, I would certainly want to include the perspectives of different people. Maybe include some people who had attempted suicide. But the purpose of this article was to specifically look at counselors. And I did that with not 1, not 2, but 3 different people with a combined experience of nearly half a century.

You did a fine job twisting the truth, spreading rumors, and misleading folks. Well done.

Again, I'd like you to point to what truths I twisted exactly? What do you feel is specifically misleading. What have I written that would give people a wrong impression about the opinions of suicide counselors.

It seems like you might disagree with the idea that Korea has one of the highest rates in the world. I cited the OECD study. Their actual study of the issue. Do you think they are an unreliable source? Where else would you have turned to for the statistic?


It doesn't matter, your article is useless, it's nonsense. Anyone with common sense would know what you stated is not from the people who need the help, but rather those who put people under a microscope and made faulty assumptions to propagate a theory they have regardless of the truth and regardless of backing it up.

Your agenda won't help the problem. You know the assertions you made in the article. You can play stupid and ask me what proof, but you know what you stated is not backed up. You capitalized "fact" for a reason. You know exactly what I am referring to, and you know you didn't look at the facts, you didn't report the facts, and you can't even prove they exist.[/quote]

It seems to matter considerably to you. And I still don't think you've provided me with anything tangible that I could work with.

The point of the article was to cover suicide counselors in Korea. Not the broader issue of suicide in Korea. I think I factually represented their side of it quite well. Your argument seems to be that their opinion doesn't matter and shouldn't be reported.