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ewlandon
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Location: teacher
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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Feloria wrote: |
Wow-
I used to have quite a bit of respect for ttompatz, until the "only idiots and Americans" statement.
I'm an American who does NOT own a gun; I don't know anyone who has, and I have never experienced any type of violence in the States--and I lived in Chicago, Philly, and DETROIT for some time.
I have however been assaulted TWICE by drunk Koreans since living here.
I however, would not make such a blanket statement like "only Koreans assault", even though that has been my experience. |
I did too. IT appears he only has a lot of respectable knowledge when it comes to ESL. This argument is pretty bad. I'm american and would never buy a gun but I have no problem with them. Guns actually make it easier to catch the criminals who use them. Also the laws in the USA are generally more sane those those in other countries. Look at punishment for sexual crimes in korea.
And to the guy who said more people die from guns in the USA than some countries in Africa. Who do you think you are talking to a bunch of children? There are 300,000,000 people in the USA. I bet more people die from LION attacks in the USA than in some african countries too. |
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ewlandon
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Location: teacher
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| PaperTiger wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| A taser isn't killing anyone. Education and practice with it will make the handler and people around them safe. |
So why do police services (trained, educated and practiced) in North America routinely have "accidental deaths" resulting from their use of this "non-lethal" weapon?
Only idiots and Americans feel the need for weapons to ensure their personal safety.
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Correction: only blinkered philistines and jackasses would make moronic, hyperbolic statements about a group as ethnically and culturally diverse as Americans.
Are there other groups other than Americans that the TOS indicates are fair game for baseless, ignorant assertations? |
Idiots are fair game (and no, I am not insinuating that you are one).
They were the other (first) target in my statement.
I also am pretty sure (backed by surveys and studies over the last 40 years or so) that in general Brits, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and the Irish don't generally feel any need to carry weapons for personal protection. It seems that as a general rule, the primary source of that stupidity is largely limited to America irrespective of their ethnic and cultural diversity.
AND since that appears to indeed be the case, then I raise my hand to being a "blinkered philistine and jackass".
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Most US citizens do not feel the need to cary guns for personal protection either. The vast majority of gun owners in the USA own them knowing very well that htye would never use them against a human and they have them well protected. Only in certain states among a group of uneducated folks or criminals do people own guns to use against other people. This is a valid argument to make guns illegal in the USA. But if you are looking at the USA and gun ownership it is NO different than these other places that you named. People who want to use guns against other people can buy them in those countries but its illegal and those guns are not registered or tracked.
Guns can be used maliciously anywhere what is your argument against the USA as a whole? |
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Noliving
Joined: 01 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
| Feloria wrote: |
Wow-
I used to have quite a bit of respect for ttompatz, until the "only idiots and Americans" statement.
I'm an American who does NOT own a gun; I don't know anyone who has, and I have never experienced any type of violence in the States--and I lived in Chicago, Philly, and DETROIT for some time.
I have however been assaulted TWICE by drunk Koreans since living here.
I however, would not make such a blanket statement like "only Koreans assault", even though that has been my experience. |
Love it. 'Never happned to me, so despite the nightly news reports, I have to conclude that it doesn't happen.' |
No what he is saying is that despite media reports, it is not as widespread as the media would have you believe in the US and vice versa with ROK, |
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Noliving
Joined: 01 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
I didn't call you an idiot. I said "Idiots and Americans" and since you clearly fit into the 2nd category then you may not necessarily fit into the first.
You can argue all you want about the need for guns. America still remains the last bastion of that foolishness among civilized nations and you will find, almost universally, that when the topic comes up the ONLY advocates for personal possession of weapons are American.
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You may not have called Americans idiot in the previous post but you just did in this post. The word foolish is a synonym for the word idiotic or idiot. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| ewlandon wrote: |
| what is your argument against the USA as a whole? |
Without exception the ONLY civilized country that advocates for personal weapons is the United States.
Any and every time you get into a discussion about people carrying arms or civilians being armed it, almost without exception, is the Americans who advocate in favor of it and again, almost without exception, they are alone in that stance.
They also have the highest death rates by violent crime of any civilized country.
Are you suggesting somehow that those 2 are NOT correlated?
| Noliving wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
I didn't call you an idiot. I said "Idiots and Americans" and since you clearly fit into the 2nd category then you may not necessarily fit into the first.
You can argue all you want about the need for guns. America still remains the last bastion of that foolishness among civilized nations and you will find, almost universally, that when the topic comes up the ONLY advocates for personal possession of weapons are American.
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You may not have called Americans idiot in the previous post but you just did in this post. The word foolish is a synonym for the word idiotic or idiot. |
No. I suggested strongly that the foolishness is, "individuals should be allowed to carry arms / need guns to be safe" and that the States is the last bastion (in the civilized world) of said foolish view .
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| Sources? |
Would you prefer the studies from Queens University in Kingston, U of T, UBC, SFU, Dalhousie University, The University of Auckland, Massey University, or numbers and comparisons by Stats Canada, or the Home Office in the UK?
I will admit however that South Africa does, statistically, have violent crime rates at the same or higher levels than the US and I do not know about gun advocacy there which is why I did NOT mention them along with the others in a previous post in this thread.
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Noliving wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Feloria wrote: |
Wow-
I used to have quite a bit of respect for ttompatz, until the "only idiots and Americans" statement.
I'm an American who does NOT own a gun; I don't know anyone who has, and I have never experienced any type of violence in the States--and I lived in Chicago, Philly, and DETROIT for some time.
I have however been assaulted TWICE by drunk Koreans since living here.
I however, would not make such a blanket statement like "only Koreans assault", even though that has been my experience. |
Love it. 'Never happned to me, so despite the nightly news reports, I have to conclude that it doesn't happen.' |
No what he is saying is that despite media reports, it is not as widespread as the media would have you believe in the US and vice versa with ROK, |
Lol, he is using his own personal experience to make that claim. Who are we to go with, one man's personal experience or the media news?
He is doing exactly what I claimed. You just can;t seem to comprehend from reading.
Try this.
1. Read slowly.
2. Pause, consider and digest.
3. Only reply when you have ignored any feelings inside you that would make you try to infer a meaning that is clearly not implied by what you have just read due to personal bias / emotional reaction.
Man, I hope myth gets back from his break soon, this is getting exhausting...  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Without exception the ONLY civilized country that advocates for personal weapons is the United States. |
O'Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic
I would submit that the reasons for American advocacy are not as irrational as they appear on the surface (as are many cultural quirks displayed by cultures around the world). They are often based on experiences or realities that bring about the situation.
Why are Americans so concerned about guns? Have you tried to think about why instead of why they are idiots?
I would suggest several reasons
1)America's historical distrust of standing professional armies and belief in the militia system as well as its revolutionary heritage. America was born of violent revolution by citizen soldiers against a professional-mercenary force.
2)It is a country that only recently was not subject to "the wilderness" and tribes of people who were apt to pick off stray travelers, to say nothing of Anglo-American bandits themselves.
3)The weight assigned to the Bill of Rights by Americans. To remove one of them would overturn an enormous precedent and open a Pandora's box.
4)Current conditions in terms of safety and security. Telling an American that their municipality should ban/heavily restrict guns to ensure public safety like they have in D.C. or Chicago is going to come across as a bit ludicrous.
5)The general self-reliance and loose-family structure of Americans. This tends to lower the trust levels in a society and favor the idea of someone taking care of themselves.
6)A history of community that existed outside of settled law and was often subject to violent territorial disputes.
7)The Domestic Firearms Industry and the economy it generates
8)National Prohibition. A distrust of idealistic governmental policies and a belief in the law of unintended consequences. "Why if we ban alcohol or drugs, the social costs of alcohol and drugs should disappear!" That's what pro-gun advocates often have in the backs of their minds when they hear such things.
When you consider these factors, American gun ownership and the views associated with it do not appear as irrational as they may on the surface.
You tell an American that they shouldn't own guns and those factors are likely to enter the discussion.
If you are going to argue in favor of strict gun laws in America you must be able to confront those points and address those concerns in a realistic manner and explain why the experiences of the past are inappropriate to the future. Simply calling them "idiots" will not get it done.
Because of this I am skeptical of gun control in America, whereas I might be more enthusiastic about it in other places. The same measures do not always work around the world.
I see no reason for "gun rights" in Korea. It would be ludicrous and dangerous to have American style gun laws here. The arguments gun owners would make back in the States would be ridiculous here. Conversely to have Korean style gun control in America might be as dangerous a proposition.
America bears terrible social costs thanks to its gun culture, however to radically overthrow that culture and attempt to impose a new one would probably be just as, if not more dangerous. |
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shaftula
Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Squire wrote: |
I love the premise of this thread. America, Brazil or Columbia is one thing, but there's no way you'll be allowed to walk around with a taser here you psychotic individual 
Also it's going to be very difficult to hit Mike Tyson where you are aiming for him with a key in your fist. Even if you are fully committed to it and don't mind walking through a Tyson hook to land your own shot it will likely glance of his head or shoulder. You'd have to have a lot of balls to even attempt that with someone like Mike Tyson, even if he is in his 40s. That's assuming you both have the same hand speed. In all likeliness he's hitting you before you hit him
The most likely scenario is he knows what you are going to do (even if he doesn't see the key, most who don't know how to fight will throw a right hand hay maker first). It's not difficult for any professional boxer (and I mean at any level) to avoid this wild swing completely then answer back with a combination of punches. You have to understand the key makes no difference unless the punch lands, and until that happens you are in a fist fight with a guy who fist fights for a living
Still, the key is probably better than nothing  |
Haha... Of course, the most likely scenario precludes Mike Tyson getting ferociously horny in Korea and attempting to rape an ESL teacher. Also, be sure to youtube the Buster Douglas fight-- Mike hasn't exactly aged well as a fighter. Besides, his face tattoo makes a perfect target for a key wielding rape victim. Just aim for the crazy. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Without exception the ONLY civilized country that advocates for personal weapons is the United States. |
O'Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic
I would submit that the reasons for American advocacy are not as irrational as they appear on the surface (as are many cultural quirks displayed by cultures around the world). They are often based on experiences or realities that bring about the situation.
Why are Americans so concerned about guns? Have you tried to think about why instead of why they are idiots?
I would suggest several reasons
1)America's historical distrust of standing professional armies and belief in the militia system as well as its revolutionary heritage. America was born of violent revolution by citizen soldiers against a professional-mercenary force.
2)It is a country that only recently was not subject to "the wilderness" and tribes of people who were apt to pick off stray travelers, to say nothing of Anglo-American bandits themselves.
3)The weight assigned to the Bill of Rights by Americans. To remove one of them would overturn an enormous precedent and open a Pandora's box.
4)Current conditions in terms of safety and security. Telling an American that their municipality should ban/heavily restrict guns to ensure public safety like they have in D.C. or Chicago is going to come across as a bit ludicrous.
5)The general self-reliance and loose-family structure of Americans. This tends to lower the trust levels in a society and favor the idea of someone taking care of themselves.
6)A history of community that existed outside of settled law and was often subject to violent territorial disputes.
7)The Domestic Firearms Industry and the economy it generates
8)National Prohibition. A distrust of idealistic governmental policies and a belief in the law of unintended consequences. "Why if we ban alcohol or drugs, the social costs of alcohol and drugs should disappear!" That's what pro-gun advocates often have in the backs of their minds when they hear such things.
When you consider these factors, American gun ownership and the views associated with it do not appear as irrational as they may on the surface.
You tell an American that they shouldn't own guns and those factors are likely to enter the discussion.
If you are going to argue in favor of strict gun laws in America you must be able to confront those points and address those concerns in a realistic manner and explain why the experiences of the past are inappropriate to the future. Simply calling them "idiots" will not get it done.
Because of this I am skeptical of gun control in America, whereas I might be more enthusiastic about it in other places. The same measures do not always work around the world.
I see no reason for "gun rights" in Korea. It would be ludicrous and dangerous to have American style gun laws here. The arguments gun owners would make back in the States would be ridiculous here. Conversely to have Korean style gun control in America might be as dangerous a proposition.
America bears terrible social costs thanks to its gun culture, however to radically overthrow that culture and attempt to impose a new one would probably be just as, if not more dangerous. |
Switzerland is unique in that they have no standing army to speak of. Their army consists of a national militia force and the guns under public control are owned and issued by the military.
I didn't suggest that Americans were idiots or that they shouldn't own guns but that their views on gun ownership are outdated and idiotic, they are alone in the civilized world with those views and again, without exception, you will find that in a discussion of this nature that, almost without exception, the ONLY people who are advocating for ownership of personal weapons are the Americans.
Time to leave the 19h century views (and personal weapons) at home and join the 21st century.
And to wrap it up, the original post was from an American (who else would even be asking; certainly no-one from any of the other 5 (S.Africa being the other possible exception) E2 countries would even consider exporting personal ownership and carriage of personal weapons to S.Korea or any other foreign country.
Keep the gun culture at home. It is the one thing that does not need to be exported from the States and, largely, no-one else wants it.
As to knocking down the straw soldiers...
1) coming from the country with the largest and the most powerful standing army on the planet - a country born of violence and still continues to export it as a first response instead of negotiation.
2) Better stay out of tribal Philippines, Indonesia and much of central Africa. Last year is much more recent than 150 years ago.
3) Under the Patriot Act (and others) Americans gave up so much more including the right to habeas corpus. Hardly a valid argument.
4) I agree... it would have to be national and not municipal or it wouldn't matter. Gun-nuts and criminals just get their toys from the next state over.
5) How is that different than most of Europe or Canada?
6) The wild west is old news (or should be). If you want the wild west, try Sichuan.
7) Great Argument. Gun companies make money off of it. It also keeps the undertakers and emergency rooms busy and profitable. The same could be said for the cigarette and tobacco companies.
Time to take this one to the off-topic forum.
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Without exception the ONLY civilized country that advocates for personal weapons is the United States. |
O'Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic
I would submit that the reasons for American advocacy are not as irrational as they appear on the surface (as are many cultural quirks displayed by cultures around the world). They are often based on experiences or realities that bring about the situation.
Why are Americans so concerned about guns? Have you tried to think about why instead of why they are idiots?
I would suggest several reasons
1)America's historical distrust of standing professional armies and belief in the militia system as well as its revolutionary heritage. America was born of violent revolution by citizen soldiers against a professional-mercenary force.
2)It is a country that only recently was not subject to "the wilderness" and tribes of people who were apt to pick off stray travelers, to say nothing of Anglo-American bandits themselves.
3)The weight assigned to the Bill of Rights by Americans. To remove one of them would overturn an enormous precedent and open a Pandora's box.
4)Current conditions in terms of safety and security. Telling an American that their municipality should ban/heavily restrict guns to ensure public safety like they have in D.C. or Chicago is going to come across as a bit ludicrous.
5)The general self-reliance and loose-family structure of Americans. This tends to lower the trust levels in a society and favor the idea of someone taking care of themselves.
6)A history of community that existed outside of settled law and was often subject to violent territorial disputes.
7)The Domestic Firearms Industry and the economy it generates
8)National Prohibition. A distrust of idealistic governmental policies and a belief in the law of unintended consequences. "Why if we ban alcohol or drugs, the social costs of alcohol and drugs should disappear!" That's what pro-gun advocates often have in the backs of their minds when they hear such things.
When you consider these factors, American gun ownership and the views associated with it do not appear as irrational as they may on the surface.
You tell an American that they shouldn't own guns and those factors are likely to enter the discussion.
If you are going to argue in favor of strict gun laws in America you must be able to confront those points and address those concerns in a realistic manner and explain why the experiences of the past are inappropriate to the future. Simply calling them "idiots" will not get it done.
Because of this I am skeptical of gun control in America, whereas I might be more enthusiastic about it in other places. The same measures do not always work around the world.
I see no reason for "gun rights" in Korea. It would be ludicrous and dangerous to have American style gun laws here. The arguments gun owners would make back in the States would be ridiculous here. Conversely to have Korean style gun control in America might be as dangerous a proposition.
America bears terrible social costs thanks to its gun culture, however to radically overthrow that culture and attempt to impose a new one would probably be just as, if not more dangerous. |
Switzerland is unique in that they have no standing army to speak of. Their army consists of a national militia force and the guns under public control are owned and issued by the military.
I didn't suggest that Americans were idiots or that they shouldn't own guns but that their views on gun ownership are outdated and idiotic, they are alone in the civilized world with those views and again, without exception, you will find that in a discussion of this nature that, almost without exception, the ONLY people who are advocating for ownership of personal weapons are the Americans.
Time to leave the 19h century views (and personal weapons) at home and join the 21st century.
And to wrap it up, the original post was from an American (who else would even be asking; certainly no-one from any of the other 5 (S.Africa being the other possible exception) E2 countries would even consider exporting personal ownership and carriage of personal weapons to S.Korea or any other foreign country.
Keep the gun culture at home. It is the one thing that does not need to be exported from the States and, largely, no-one else wants it.
As to knocking down the straw soldiers...
1) coming from the country with the largest and the most powerful standing army on the planet - a country born of violence and still continues to export it as a first response instead of negotiation.
2) Better stay out of tribal Philippines, Indonesia and much of central Africa. Last year is much more recent than 150 years ago.
3) Under the Patriot Act (and others) Americans gave up so much more including the right to habeas corpus. Hardly a valid argument.
4) I agree... it would have to be national and not municipal or it wouldn't matter. Gun-nuts and criminals just get their toys from the next state over.
5) How is that different than most of Europe or Canada?
6) The wild west is old news (or should be). If you want the wild west, try Sichuan.
7) Great Argument. Gun companies make money off of it. It also keeps the undertakers and emergency rooms busy and profitable. The same could be said for the cigarette and tobacco companies.
Time to take this one to the off-topic forum.
. |
You gonna give the links for those sources or just ask me which ones I want? And please find some from the US. We all know how each country likes to put their spin on things.
Oh and the statement "idiots and Americans" would imply idiots are Americans and Americans are idiots. The US has not become completely sissified just yet. Take the guns away and we are well on our way. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Man this thread is full of fail.
How does "Can my friend get a taser to protect herself?" morph into a whinefest about the US gun/personal weapon policies? Not exactly the point of the thread.
I think women throughout the world should be able to, at a bare minimum, carry pepper spray on their person for self-defense purposes. |
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