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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: Comparing American salaries to ESL salaries here |
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The consensus on this board seems to be that the typical ESL wage in Korea is much, much greater than the typical American wage. This is simply not true.
| Quote: |
| white men with a bachelor�s degree who work full-time can expect to make more than $2.8 million over their 40-year working lifetime, compared with $1.7 million for white men with only a high school diploma, for a difference of $1.1 million. |
http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/17/8861013-yes-college-degree-has-value-try-1-million
For a white male whose highest level of educational attainment is a high school diploma, a typical salary in the United States would be:
42,500.00 USD = 49,444,668.11 KRW
(4.1 mil per month)
For a white male whose highest level of educational attainment is a bachelors diploma, a typical salary in the United States would be:
70,000.00 USD = 81,440,852.64 KRW
(6.8 mil per month)
Also noteworthy is that the majority of jobs in the United States have a benefits package, and these benefits are worth over 30% of the total remuneration.
Take a look at an example from the most populous city in the U.S.:
| Quote: |
| Today in New York City, for example, the average annual per-teacher compensation is more than $110,000. The salary portion is $71,000, and the pension portion is $23,000. (The rest is for health insurance, FICA and other benefits.) |
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576066192958395176.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Including benefits into the equation, the typical (median) salary for a high school graduate would be 5.3 million per month, and for a bachelors degree holder, 8.8 million per month. The only type of people in Korea making that kind of money (with rare exception) are F-visa holders. Without an F-visa, the United States is a better deal financially (if it is money you are after). |
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Setaro
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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*sigh* Living. Costs.
Factor that in, and the difference ain't that much.
Also working in America you're going to be under a lot more stress and given a ton more responsibility than the human take recorder job most of us can sit back and enjoy here in Korea. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have all that much to say about this data.... accept.
why did the article only analyze the 54% of those with a high school diploma?
and 61% of those with a BA?
The answer seems to be it's because only this % is employed year round. That makes this report a little more than an advertising tool for universities. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The consensus on this board seems to be that the typical ESL wage in Korea is much, much greater than the typical American wage. This is simply not true. |
You can't compare our jobs with jobs back home. Security deposits are NOT the SAME, we don't teach English as a second language, and it is possible to get loans easier in a home country than abroad.
Your potential to make money in your home country greatly outweighs an easy life with 1/3 guaranteed salary, 2/3 if you put yourself in slave mode. That brings in the 4th stinger, owning your own business. You simply aren't going to see that with your typical visa holder for an English teacher. The closest I have seen is a franchise based school system in Japan. However, that's just throwing your money away that you have before you come and then working your butt off to stay at zero. If you are lucky (like a gamble) then maybe you can get students to bring in a profit. However, they are adults, and they usually stop for various reasons (work, vacation, etc...). About half of them return on an off, but it's not steady like a public school position.
You need to maintain your student base, and that is extremely difficult. |
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chasmmi
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Location: Ulsan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
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I have just taken a pay cut to come to Korea from the UK.
(was earning 16.5k in London and have just spent about 1500 pounds to have the privelige of earning 14.4k (inc. end of contract bonus here)
So my salary for the coming year has taken essentially taken a 3500 pound hit. A pay cut of over 20%.
Using these stats alone and I could write an article with numbers and stats to show that my choice is an incredibly stupid one.
But when one factors in cost of living...
London:
1350 pounds per month before tax
Remove tax...
1000 pounds
remove rent
550 pounds (if one is prepared to share a not very nice house with about 4 others and sacrifice living room etc.)
remove mobile phone bills, Tube travel for the month.
400 pounds
remove basic food and liquid requirements (not eating/drinking out, just water, milk, vegetables rice etc)
350 pounds
remove lunch and coffee at work
230 pounds
So therefore I now have about 50 pounds a week left for going out, meeting friends and saving for the future. (So long as I do not need to buy anything like clothes, replacement electronics or if anything breaks).
As one night out in London without overdoing it at all will set you back 25-30 quid I can essentially enjoy one mild night out a week and so long as I go straight home the other 6 days and partake in zero hobbies or interests I can save a good 50 quid a month.
Now look at Korea.
Wage 2.2M (Once you add 1/12 of the monthly bonus to each months total).
minus tax
2.15M
Minus rent (free) and bills
2M
Minus mobile phone bills, travel for the month.
1.9M
Minus home food bills
1.8M
Minus Lunch and Coffee
1.5M
Why not throw in cable TV, and a monthly weekend KTX trip to Seoul staying at a motel for two nights.
1.2M
Go out with friends every Friday and Saturday for food, beers and soju and then a Noraebang after and a taxi home. Lets say every eveing is Semi extravagent. Ordering lots of anju but no booking clubs or bottles of whiskey or whatever.
650k
So even with all that and living a crazier life than I plan to and going out every free eveing I have I am still able to banking 360 quid a month.
If I was happy to live in Korea, the near-hermit Life I would have to live in London on 16.5k (let alone 14.4) I could be banking around 800 pounds a month.
So the fact of the matter is to live like I can live in Korea (the going out every weekend night and spending about 50-60k each time example) in London and still be abe to save 300+ pounds at the end of each month, I would need to earn...
Rent - 450
All bills inc. cable- 250
Visiting another city once a month train and 2 nights hotel - 150
London travel - 120
lunch (at a restaurant, not staff canteen), and coffee - 200
going out every Friday and Sat and reasonable living it up - 650
savings for the bank - 300
total 2120 require after tax and NI
Thus my required pre-tax Monthly earnings to be able to live my Korea life in London and save what I can save on an entry level Korean teaching salary is...
Probably about 3k.
A know I have rambled on a lot about pretty much nothing and have probably been naive/stupid/just plain overlooked some stuff, but the way I see it is that 14-15grand a year in Korea roughly equates to 35 grand a year in the UK.
Now it may be different with regards to USA or wherever but the fact remains that my 16.5K a year job in London would have had to actually offered to double my salary just to make it as attractive as the Korean option once you factor in cost of living and so essentially my ridiculous ramble can be summed up in about 8 words:
Average salary per nation data means sod all. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: Re: Comparing American salaries to ESL salaries here |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
The consensus on this board seems to be that the typical ESL wage in Korea is much, much greater than the typical American wage. This is simply not true.
| Quote: |
| white men with a bachelor�s degree who work full-time can expect to make more than $2.8 million over their 40-year working lifetime, compared with $1.7 million for white men with only a high school diploma, for a difference of $1.1 million. |
http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/17/8861013-yes-college-degree-has-value-try-1-million
For a white male whose highest level of educational attainment is a high school diploma, a typical salary in the United States would be:
42,500.00 USD = 49,444,668.11 KRW
(4.1 mil per month)
For a white male whose highest level of educational attainment is a bachelors diploma, a typical salary in the United States would be:
70,000.00 USD = 81,440,852.64 KRW
(6.8 mil per month)
Also noteworthy is that the majority of jobs in the United States have a benefits package, and these benefits are worth over 30% of the total remuneration.
Take a look at an example from the most populous city in the U.S.:
| Quote: |
| Today in New York City, for example, the average annual per-teacher compensation is more than $110,000. The salary portion is $71,000, and the pension portion is $23,000. (The rest is for health insurance, FICA and other benefits.) |
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576066192958395176.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Including benefits into the equation, the typical (median) salary for a high school graduate would be 5.3 million per month, and for a bachelors degree holder, 8.8 million per month. The only type of people in Korea making that kind of money (with rare exception) are F-visa holders. Without an F-visa, the United States is a better deal financially (if it is money you are after). |
First, I don't know where you got your numbers. If you look at the Census data as linked to in the article you linked, you'll see that the MEDIAN salaries are listed, and a high school graduate would be getting $21,569 per year.
But who cares what the high school graduate is getting. NOBODY who is teaching English in Korea is only a high school graduate. So, let's look at the college grads:
42,783 is the median for all college grads
57,026 is the median for all FULL TIME EMPLOYED college grads
25,074 is the median for all LESS THAN FULL TIME EMPLOYED college grads
And a total of 12% of college grads are unemployed.
Now, compare that to Korea.
How many ESL teachers are unemployed in Korea? 0%! If they are unemployed, they aren't here.
Also, how many people are here working a full time schedule - 40 hours a week. We'd have to do some research here and find out how many people are working public school jobs at 40 hours, how many people are doing hagwon jobs at the 25-40 mark and how many are working uni gigs at the sub-20 gig.
To keep this simple, we'll compare the median for ALL workers. This is not entirely accurate as it is lower due to unemployed workers, while in Korea there are no unemployed ESL teachers. Also, as I said, we're comparing a full 40 hour workweek to the typical ESL teacher workweek, which is frequently under 40 hours, or while being 40, will actually only be 20 or so hours of class work with the remaining time being wasted at a desk. Many factors to consider
$42,783 = $3,565.25 a month
Let's assume an exchange rate of 1150:1. The rate fluctuates, but considering that it's ranged from 800:1 to 1500:1 over the past few years, 1150 is right in the center.
4,100,037.5 won per month is the equivalent pay.
Now let's add up the numbers
2.0 for salary
400 for housing
50 for matching insurance
167 for flight (1000 per flight)
84.35 for pension (1/12 of yearly salary)
167 for year end payment (1/12 of yearly salary)
A total of 2.601 mil on a base salary of 2.0.
Of course, this is comparing the MEDIAN worker in the US versus the ENTRY level worker in Korea. So what is the median wage in Korea?
Let's assume it's 3 mil won. Not too hard to earn - be here a few years, put in some time, have good recommendations.
3.0 for salary
400 for housing
65 for insurance
167 for flight
125 for pension
250 for year end payment
So, a total of 40.07 mil per month. Just shy of the equivalent in the US.
But now, we have to consider the unemployment rate, the race/gender of the person, the cost of living in the area, the major of the person (how many people with engineering degrees teach English? How many people with English degrees are earning the full 42,783?)
Long story short, you can twist the numbers to say what you want them to say. I'm saying that the median worker in the US can be in any field, while you're comparing them ONLY to ESL teachers. Also, as others pointed out, the cost of living is different. Of course, things are cheaper in Korea (subway rides, taxis) but they are also cheaper in the US (food) too. So it really depends on the person. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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I plan to return to the US in a few months, and though I am excited about being near my family again, and look forward to social opportunities that seem to be lacking for me in Korea, I will be taking a substantial pay cut.
For example, I would like to move to Washington State. The teaching salary schedule for WA is:
http://www.k12.wa.us/safs/PUB/PER/SalAllocSchedule.pdf
I have a Master's +20 years, which would put me at step MA+0 step 16...which in 2011 is almost $58k...but notice that in 2012-2013, the rate actually goes down -- pay cuts all around!
Now, if I were to earn $58k a year, my take-home pay is a lordly $41,868 or so -- thank goodness WA doesn't have state income tax, or I would be taking home much less!
http://www.calculator.net/take-home-pay-calculator.html
I used this calculator and punched in $58k as the annual income, took the takehome amount and multiplied by 26 (I left the pay at bi-weekly, which was how I had been paid in 2 of the schools in the US).
Of course, I'm going to be spending at least $500 a month for rent, which drops my earnings to about $36k a year.
Oh, WA state teacher's union dues are $750-$1,000 a year, so drop that to $35k.
Oh, I would want dental, optical, and medical coverage that allows me to go to the doctor of my choice...that's going to cost me another $2k a year or so (about $200 more a month). $33k. In Korea, the amount I pay going wherever I choose whenever I choose is less than the deductable on most plans, and meds are cheaper here too....
...so, $33k...which is 38 million won a year at today's exchange rate of 1152 won to the US dollar...and my school's STARTING salary is 38 million won. I make more than that where I am at....
Of course, I probably won't get hired at MA+0 and step 16 -- because what school will want to pay for my time and experience when they can hire a BA+ 0 step 0 for $33k ($25k less than what I should be getting)?
The amount of money one can save while teaching in Korea is much greater than the amount one can save while teaching in the US. I spent about a decade teaching in each country, and in the US, I barely kept my head above water, while in Korea I was able to put some stable ground beneath me, climb out of debt, and actually have something socked away for a rainy day.
Oh, for those that want to compare starting salaries (not average salaries, which some folks love to bandy about), here is a link...
http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
...and please remember that the vast majority of folks teaching in Korea do NOT qualify for teaching jobs in the US -- they would need additional schooling and training, as well as testing and vetting.
Teaching licenses aren't free, either -- a lifetime certificate is pretty cheap, for states that have them (my TX lifetime certificate cost me a measly $150), but for states that require regular renewals (I'm looking at you, Michigan), they run about $50 a year, and require several classes to be completed every few years, usually on the teacher's own dime....
Korea's hoops, while annoying, are pretty similar to the hoops in the US -- no apostilles necessary in the US, but the schools would request the FBI background check directly, and one still has to submit fingerprints and pay the fee.
...so, without even getting into the cost of living differences, Korea is a much better financial deal than teaching in the US. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Comparing American salaries to ESL salaries here |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| And a total of 12% of college grads are unemployed. |
No, not unemployed. Just out of the workforce. That figure includes stay at home moms, full time grad students, etc. Unemployment for college grads is 4.3%
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| So, a total of 40.07 mil per month. Just shy of the equivalent in the US. |
Do you mean 4 million a month? How is that "just shy" of the American equivalent of 8.84 million a month? That is less than half. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| I plan to return to the US in a few months, and though I am excited about being near my family again, and look forward to social opportunities that seem to be lacking for me in Korea, I will be taking a substantial pay cut. |
Actually, no. You will be getting a pay raise...because (unlike in Korea) your employer will be paying thousands of dollars into your retirement account, and into social security on your behalf (which will come in handy down the road). But hey, don't get mad at me- I'm just the bearer of good news.  |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Comparing American salaries to ESL salaries here |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| And a total of 12% of college grads are unemployed. |
No, not unemployed. Just out of the workforce. That figure includes stay at home moms, full time grad students, etc. Unemployment for college grads is 4.3%
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| So, a total of 40.07 mil per month. Just shy of the equivalent in the US. |
Do you mean 4 million a month? How is that "just shy" of the American equivalent of 8.84 million a month? That is less than half. |
People are considered unemployed only if they are ACTIVELY looking for work and can't find it. The unemployment rate that is supposedly around 9% is BS as so many people have stopped actively looking for work. Also, people who are working at lower jobs than they want are not counted as unemployed, but it is disingenuous to count a college grad waiting tables as employed.
Secondly, I stated that I couldn't find where you were getting that 8 mil a month number. Using the links YOU provided, the numbers are approximately 4 mil a month. So, show me where you found this 8 mil a month and I'll look at it. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Everyone saw a pretty graph and was blown away
They took the average of the 60% that are working full time and ignored the stats for those what aren't working full time.
So $42k for 60% of those working. $0 for 40%. so.the average actually is... 25.2k |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
| I plan to return to the US in a few months, and though I am excited about being near my family again, and look forward to social opportunities that seem to be lacking for me in Korea, I will be taking a substantial pay cut. |
Actually, no. You will be getting a pay raise...because (unlike in Korea) your employer will be paying thousands of dollars into your retirement account, and into social security on your behalf (which will come in handy down the road). But hey, don't get mad at me- I'm just the bearer of good news. |
I expect social security to be a thing of the past by the time I retire -- I figure I need to plan for my own retirement, with my own savings and investments.
Social security is 6.2% of earnings paid by the government and 6.2% paid by the employee. I am paying 4.5% pension, and my employer is paying 4.5% (yes, I checked -- you can do that online, ya know)...therefore you are right...I am making...1.7% less here than in the US.
Of course, my current tax rate in Korea is about 8% or so...whereas in the US, it is closer to 18%...so 1.7% down, 10% up, for a net gain of 8.3% of my earnings going into my bank account, rather than the government's....
Sure, if I could max my 401k contributions, and they were matched by my employer, then I would be better off...but I couldn't AFFORD to max my contributions in the US...and the employer contribution seems to hover between 4%-6% matched...and since I am already 8.3% ahead, even at 6% employer match...I am 2.3% ahead in Korea.... |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Comparing American salaries to ESL salaries here |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| it is disingenuous to count a college grad waiting tables as employed. |
Right. Their salary is under reported as they pocket most of their tips rather than claim those earnings. Their income on paper looks lower than it really is.
Do you lack the confidence to think you would be able to do better than a job waiting tables (or no job at all) in the United States?
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| I couldn't find where you were getting that 8 mil a month number. |
Try 9 mil a month it you want a closer estimate.
$2.8 million USD times 1.3 divided by 40.
That's a number for a white male. Most people on this board are white males. A significant number might be Korean, too, but did you know Asian Americans on average earn even more than whites (last I checked)? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| Social security is 6.2% of earnings paid by the government and 6.2% paid by the employee... |
Incorrect. 6.2% is paid by the employer, while 4.2% is paid by the employee. (What you are citing was correct in the past, but is not longer the case.) |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
| $0 for 40%. |
Recheck your math. Out of that percentage, many work part time. They are certainly earning more than $0 per year. |
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