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Stout

Joined: 28 May 2011

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject:

I'm guessing u've conveniently forgotten the posting below which was on p.13?

Going about things the way Rhee and the US did (i.e. framing and executing political rivals) isn't the kind of "democracy" anyone wants.

Stout wrote:

@Junior

Quote:

But he was freely and democratically re-elected in e.g. 1950 and 1960 by large majorities.

Maybe it had something to do with having political rivals framed and executed-

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/12/113_101688.html

12-27-2011 18:37

State ordered to compensate family of late Cho Bong-am

By Kim Rahn

A court has ordered the state to compensate the bereaved family of the late Cho Bong-am who was executed on false charges of espionage 52 years ago by the Syngman Rhee administration.

The Seoul Central District Court Tuesday ordered the state to pay a total of 2.4 billion won ($2 million) to four members of Cho�s bereaved family, including 1.3 billion won to his son.

The family filed the compensation suit after the Supreme Court overturned the guilty verdict on the leader of the nation�s first progressive party in January, over half a century since the first ruling.

Cho, who fought for Korea�s independence from Japanese colonial rule, served as a lawmaker and an agriculture minister after independence. He created the Jinbo (progressive) Party in 1956, emerging as President Rhee�s political rival.

In 1958, he was indicted on charges of spying, receiving funds from the North and organizing a group for the purpose of state disturbance. Cho was initially sentenced to five years in prison, but the appellate court and the top court gave him the death penalty.

The family called for a retrial, claiming he was framed with the espionage charges with faulty evidence and manipulated testimonies. In an irreversible turn of events the call was rejected and he was hastily executed in July 1959.

The Supreme Court decided to hold a retrial for Cho upon the request of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which viewed Cho as the victim of a �judicial murder.� Earlier this year, all 14 justices of the top court concluded Cho was not guilty of the accusations.

I don't think you could call the 1958-59 events noted above as democratic in any relative sense of the word. Nor did the South Korean people, who became so riled up that Rhee had to be airlifted by a US military plane out of Seoul and whisked to Hawaii, where he lived out his remaining days in exile, disgraced and never to return to the land of his birth.

NohopeSeriously

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:26 am Post subject:

Stout wrote:

Going about things the way Rhee and the US did (i.e. framing and executing political rivals) isn't the kind of "democracy" anyone wants.

The American government had done many evil things in South Korea right before the Korean War.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:11 am Post subject:

NohopeSeriously wrote:

Stout wrote:

Going about things the way Rhee and the US did (i.e. framing and executing political rivals) isn't the kind of "democracy" anyone wants.

The American government had done many evil things in South Korea right before the Korean War.

I don't consider eliminating North Korean agents (sent to the south in their thousands to murder civilians) to be 'evil"- rather to be safguarding the security and future path to democracy of the ROK.

You speak as if you would have preferred to hand the country to the communists and curse it with decades of barbaric dictatorship, as has been the case in dprk. Starving your subjects en masse and imprisoning them in concentration camps... is what you you call evil. Some perspective please.

The years between the departure of the japanese and the onset of war were chaotic and lawless, why judge them by the standards of the US today? Desperate times call for desperate measures. Yes there were mistakes but the US always had the long term goal in mind: cultivating an ally and building democracy. Baby steps.

Stout

Joined: 28 May 2011

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:31 am Post subject:

Junior wrote:

NohopeSeriously wrote:

Stout wrote:

Going about things the way Rhee and the US did (i.e. framing and executing political rivals) isn't the kind of "democracy" anyone wants.

The American government had done many evil things in South Korea right before the Korean War.

Last time I checked democracy was about what the people want.

South Korean citizens plainly didn't want the the US-supported Japanese collaborators in power, full stop.

The US failed to execute a similar plan in Vietnam. Ask a Vietnamese person if they are sad that the US failed to install military bases and their brand of democracy there.

Now check out any of the demonstrations to do with FTA or whatnot, and ask any of the South Koreans there if they are glad the US has "cultivated" their ally and built "democracy".

Extrapolating what's been happening in North Korea due to the various economic sanctions and constant military situations and stating it would definitely be the same concentration camp/starving citizens scenario if the North had triumphed as the Vietcong and northern-based People's Army of Vietnam had (and had the opportunity to settle down and get their own thing together), is stretching it, to say the least.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject:

Stout wrote:

Last time I checked democracy was about what the people want.

South Korean citizens plainly didn't want the the US-supported Japanese collaborators in power, full stop.

Then why did they freely elect them?

And to whom are you referring to exactly? Rhee was not a Japanese collaborator, he organized anti Japanese protests: he was imprisoned and tortured by the Japanese.

Quote:

The US failed to execute a similar plan in Vietnam. Ask a Vietnamese person if they are sad that the US failed to install military bases and their brand of democracy there.

Actually it is possible that the Vietnamese would welcome US bases to counter growing Chinese influence. America and Vietnam have good relations.

Quote:

Keep in mind the Vietnamese had a war [with the Chinese] after we left Vietnam...so there's no love loss with the Chinese," the national defense analyst points out. "They see that China is emerging as a real threat to them, so there's a good chance that some sort of relationship would be established between the U.S. and Vietnam to allow some sort of basing
http://onenewsnow.com/Security/Default.aspx?id=1141058

Quote:

Now check out any of the demonstrations to do with FTA or whatnot, and ask any of the South Koreans there if they are glad the US has "cultivated" their ally and built "democracy".

Korea wants the FTA. Why else would they freely sign it? In fact they signed twice- in 2007 and an updated version in 2010.

Quote:

Actually NK survives due to foreign aid.

Targetted sanctions denying the Kim regime toys like luxury cars and jewellery or preventing them selling nuclear materials to Iran can hardly be construed as the reason why they have chosen to impoverish and brutalise their own people for 60 years.

Laughing

OK soviet man you can come out now.

Stout

Joined: 28 May 2011

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:09 am Post subject:

Junior wrote:

Stout wrote:

Last time I checked democracy was about what the people want.

South Korean citizens plainly didn't want the the US-supported Japanese collaborators in power, full stop.

Quote:

The US failed to execute a similar plan in Vietnam. Ask a Vietnamese person if they are sad that the US failed to install military bases and their brand of democracy there.

Actually it is possible that the Vietnamese would welcome US bases to counter growing Chinese influence. America and Vietnam have good relations.

Quote:

Now check out any of the demonstrations to do with FTA or whatnot, and ask any of the South Koreans there if they are glad the US has "cultivated" their ally and built "democracy".

Korea wants the FTA. Why else would they freely sign it? In fact they signed twice- in 2007 and an updated version in 2010.

Quote:

OK soviet man you can come out now.

Alright, well, petty name-calling aside (ain't no big thing), it's apparent you just aren't very versed in the fundamentals of the situation.

1) Rhee was not imprisoned or tortured by the Japanese, but he was incarcerated from 1897 until 1904 by the Joseon Dynasty (you may recall that Japan annexed Korea in 1910), whose ruling elite would later become collaborators with Japan and the US. Rhee was installed by the US to lead the bureaucracy of Joseon elite Japanese collaborators whom the US left intact. The collaborators in the south knew they could just as easily have been thrown out on their behinds as those in the North were, so they made themselves receptive to US directives. In prison speak, they had no issue with bein' someone's b***, 'cos they were already broken in by the Japanese, and before that by China, for 600 years...and wouldn't you know it, the hardliners are still doin' a song and dance for their Benz's and posh digs.

2) South Korean citizens didn't want Rhee installed. Their voice was ignored. So they rose up in order to be heard. Then they were put down and uniformly labeled "commie agitator", etc. No doubt some were genuinely communist, and if the majority were, then they deseved a platform to put forth their views.

3) Ballot stuffing, money in exchange for votes (still a tactic used by hardliners today (http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20120106000611), companies set up by the people with money in an agriculture-based economy(the land-owning collaborators) telling their workers to vote Rhee or kiss their job/future good-bye, etc is what got Rhee "elected".

4) When citizens organized viable opposition, their candidate was framed and executed. So, when Rhee was "re'elected" in 1960, there was no way to control the inleashed fury of SK citizens, leading to a disgraced Rhee having to be airlifted by the US military out of the ROK and whisked back to the states, together with funds he stole from the South Korean people to the tune of 20 million dollars.

5) The FTA was altered after Lee Myung-bak came to power. Naturally his US-lovin' hardliner gov't signed it, these are the same people who get huge kickbacks on promoting conflict with the North leading to the purchase of US ships, missiles, jetfighters, etc., all that good stuff.

6) The defense analyst/Pentagon advisor Idea

who wrote that article is articulating the wishes of the US military industrial complex. I invite you to ask the Vietnamese people what their thoughts are on the topic.

7) Right, US sanctions are only aimed at NK elite luxury goods, which would explain why Kim Jong-il was able to get a hold of all his goodies Rolling Eyes

Well, as usual, you aim to stage some sorta contest of attrition without making any real valid points, and as other posters on other threads have noted, you're basically not worth the time. So knock yourself out with further distortions and petty name calling, and have yourself a nice day there, junior.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:35 am Post subject:

Quote:

Alright, well, petty name-calling aside

No petty name calling involved. "Soviet man" was the id of a former sock on here who took a consistent anti american/pro communist stance...who you resemble.

Quote:

Rhee was not imprisoned or tortured by the Japanese, but he was incarcerated from 1897 until 1904 by the Joseon Dynasty (you may recall that Japan annexed Korea in 1910)

You appear to ignorant of the basics of korean history. Yes, Japan formally annexed Korea in 1910 but that does not mean Rhee was imprisononed by his own King.
Japan had de-facto owned Korea since the Sino-Japanese war of 1895. The country was flooded with japanese troops. King Gojong was held under house arrest by the japanese. He was forced to sign all kinds of statements at their hands. They had Empress Myeongsong knocked off later that year.
Korea was basically ruled by the japanese legation: the only reason they did not formally pronounce their sovereignty over Korea was because they were temporarily trying to avoid a war with russia. In 1897 Rhee was arrested for participating in anti-Japanese demos that were happening across the country. If that makes him a "Japanese collaborator" then... pigs live on mars.

Quote:

whose ruling elite would later become collaborators with Japan and the US.

Americans were responsible for ending japanese occupation. They did not plan to colonise Korea, rather to instil democracy. Hence the free and fair UN-sponsored elections that brought Rhee to power in the first place.

The only person who appears to be against the democratic process here is you.

First you claim that a democratically elected president was "not wanted" by the people who elected him. Then you claim that Korea was somehow forced to sign the FTA by outside powers against their will. Your understanding of history seems to be largely warped by some sort of socialist north korean victim mentality.

Quote:

these are the same people who get huge kickbacks on promoting conflict with the North leading to the purchase of US ships, missiles, jetfighters, etc., all that good stuff.

I don't see anyone "promoting conflict" except the late Kim Jong Il who recently sank a korean frigate and bombed a south korean island. Maybe you will try to formulate some chimerical conspiracy whereby LMB dropped the bombs in disguise but that would be undermined by the fact he has just made an olive branch of a speech towards Kim Jong Un.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:22 am Post subject:

Stout wrote:

Extrapolating what's been happening in North Korea due to the various economic sanctions and constant military situations and stating it would definitely be the same concentration camp/starving citizens scenario if the North had triumphed as the Vietcong and northern-based People's Army of Vietnam had (and had the opportunity to settle down and get their own thing together), is stretching it, to say the least.

It's unreasonable to compare North Korea and pretty much any other communist country. Blood taint is absolutely central to North Korea's ideology, to the point that people still have opportunities limited based on their great-grandparents' social status at the time of Korea's division. I don't think you can blame anyone outside of North Korea for the insane ideology that holds it back.

Stout

Joined: 28 May 2011

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:53 am Post subject:

Junior wrote:

Quote:

Alright, well, petty name-calling aside

No petty name calling involved. "Soviet man" was the id of a former sock on here who took a consistent anti american/pro communist stance...who you resemble.

Quote:

Rhee was not imprisoned or tortured by the Japanese, but he was incarcerated from 1897 until 1904 by the Joseon Dynasty (you may recall that Japan annexed Korea in 1910)

You appear to ignorant of the basics of korean history. Yes, Japan formally annexed Korea in 1910 but that does not mean Rhee was imprisononed by his own King.

There were pro-Japanese factions in the Korean gov't, who later helped Japan when they formally annexed Korea. Rhee protested against the Joseon King dynasty and its king for its inability to deal with the growing pro-Japanese contingent. He was therefore jailed and tortured by Joseon, not the Japanese; the Japanese knew better than take over official adminstration of Korea before formally annexing it, because to do so would invite a tremendous backlash from the international community (this is Foreign Diplomacy 101 we're talking; I'm a bit embarrassed to have to even state it, but you really seem to be missing a few cards in your deck)-

http://edition.cnn.com/fyi/school.tools/profiles/Syngman.Rhee/frameset.exclude.html

Rhee was imprisoned in 1897 for leading demonstrations against the Korean monarchy.

@Junior

Quote:

http://asiasociety.org/countries/conflicts/massacre-nogun-ri

The Soviet and US leaderships agreed to jointly accept the Japanese surrender in Korea and to each oversee one half of the peninsula�divided at the 38�N parallel�during a transitionary phase of no set duration. Communist Koreans accompanied the Soviet party to this task in the north, where they influenced the leftist KPR administration. On the other hand, the US team (with few Korean personnel) arrived later in Seoul, and were greeted by Japanese officials� rumors that Korean communists planned upheaval and sabotage. So, with little understanding of the changes already begun by the KPR, such as guidelines for land redistribution and labor reforms, the US Army broke up the KPR�s nascent networks in the south to set up its own government. To make matters worse, the US invited Korean officials who had been complicit with Japanese colonial rule to participate in the new Army-led government. The move put them directly at odds with the KPR (whose policies, such as land redistribution, sought to eliminate the inequities of the colonial period), and with the public-at-large (who viewed the reinstated officials as cronies and collaborators of the Japanese). Though the reinstated officials claimed to be democrats in a newly established political party, the US track seemed rather to be leading back to foreign, conservative colonial rule in an increasingly divided Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_general_election,_1948

The election was originally intended to be held throughout the Korean peninsula, but US and Soviet forces were unable to agree on the terms of such an election. It was therefore held only in the US-administered territory, whilst the first elections in North Korea were held in August. However one hundred seats were left open in the South Korean Parliament for North Koreans to vote on when they were able.[2] The voters elected members of parliament, who then voted on the constitution and elected the president. The overwhelming majority of Koreans opposed the election and the division of Korea that would result.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-American_sentiment_in_Korea#Pre-Korean_War

After the Japanese defeat in World War II the United States set up a self-declared government, United States Army Military Government in Korea, in Korea which pursued a number of very unpopular policies. In brief, the military government first supported the same Japanese colonial government. Then it removed the Japanese officials but retained them as advisors. At the same time the Koreans, before the Americans had arrived, had developed their own popular-based government, the People's Republic of Korea. This popular government was ignored, censored, and then eventually outlawed by decree of the U.S. military government. The military government also created an advisory council for which the majority of seats were offered to the nascent Korea Democratic Party (KDP) which mainly consisted of large landowners, wealthy businesspeople, and former colonial officials. The military government, and this advisory council, set up elections for a legislature.

The elections were boycotted and protested throughout the country by the peasantry. The uprising was suppressed with police, U.S. troops and tanks, and declarations of martial law. Furthermore, the U.S.'s refusal to consult existing popular organizations in the south, as agreed upon at the Moscow Conference, and thus paving the way towards a divided Korea, embittered the majority of Koreans. Finally, pushing for United Nations elections that would not be observed by the USSR-controlled north, over legal objections, enshrined a divided Korea, which the majority of Koreans opposed.[4]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously, junior, grow up and develop some critical thinking skills. If you want to keep glossing over the facts and hold the Pentagon's jock strap, do it without soiling the rest of us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Northway

Quote:

It's equally unreasonable to expect a country to develop any progressive policies when massive sanctions and war games keep their leaders in a constant state of preparation for war. If you have the impression that a gang is about to bust in your front door, you're going to put your trust in the hands of your relatives to protect the place.

Last edited by Stout on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:07 am Post subject:

Stout wrote:

the Japanese knew better than take over official adminstration of Korea before formally annexing it, because to do so would invite a tremendous backlash from the international community

Thats what I just told you, genius.
Glad to see you are not impervious to being educated, even if you do turn right around and claim credit for such ideas yourself.

Quote:

Syngman Rhee was born on April 26, 1875, in Whanghai Province, Korea, into a family with ties to a long line of dynastic Korean rulers.

lol you throw at me something from a cnn messageboard? The first line of which already contains mistakes? There is no such province as "Whanghai". And the majority of koreans claim royal ancestry btw, its hardly something special.

Quote:

Rhee was imprisoned in 1897 for leading demonstrations against the Korean monarchy.

That does not make him a Japanese collaborator (as you claimed earlier).
It is well known that he was a hardcore anti Japanese protester and politician throughout his life.
The demonstrations he was involved in at the time mixed various issues. One was of the perception that the royal family was allowing Japanese influence.
Reality was that they had zero choice, the king was held and tortured by the japanese and into signing all kinds of edicts. Generally speaking the demonstrations were more about resisting japanese domination than criticizing the monarchy (which by that point had been forcibly commandeered and hijacked by enemy forces).

Quote:

the US invited Korean officials who had been complicit with Japanese colonial rule to participate in the new Army-led government.

A largely unintentional mistake. The US made similiar faux in iraq and afghanistan. There are always mistakes.
Do such accidents outweigh the incredible force for good that the US has been to south korea?

Quote:

The move put them directly at odds with the KPR

Actually at the time Koreans failed to speak with a unified voice or party. They were disorganized, politically inept and naive. Ignorant of global forces.
As to be expected of a society that had lived in isolation for centuries under oppressive slavery and unelected monarchy.

Anti-american sentiment is hardly a surprise, this country has harbored anti foreign suspicion and sentiment since time immemorial. If you want to look for minor reasons to try and justify it then you're missing the bigger picture.

You're honestly telling me that the south would have been better under Kim Il Sung... that living in the stone age is better than accepting help from america?

So when are you moving to Pyongyang?

Stout

Joined: 28 May 2011

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:55 am Post subject:

Junior wrote:

Stout wrote:

the Japanese knew better than take over official adminstration of Korea before formally annexing it, because to do so would invite a tremendous backlash from the international community

Thats what I just told you, genius.
Glad to see you are not impervious to being educated, even if you do turn right around and claim credit for such ideas yourself.

Quote:

Syngman Rhee was born on April 26, 1875, in Whanghai Province, Korea, into a family with ties to a long line of dynastic Korean rulers.

Quote:

Rhee was imprisoned in 1897 for leading demonstrations against the Korean monarchy.

Quote:

the US invited Korean officials who had been complicit with Japanese colonial rule to participate in the new Army-led government.

Quote:

The move put them directly at odds with the KPR

Damn, u are special.

You keep twisting things up, misquoting, not understanding, repeating the same mistakes ad nauseum.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say a lot of teachers who had u in class probably also pointed out your special abilities of reasoning and perception.

And a lot of other posters have also concurred with the above assessment.

It's to the point where just about everyone can see what you're made of, especially when you make classy comments like how you ended your last post.

Well, carry on, soldier boy.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject:

Stout wrote:

Quote:

That's not really a fair estimation of the situation prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, and the DPRK had already fallen well behind the ROK at that point.

Stout

Joined: 28 May 2011

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject:

northway wrote:

Stout wrote:

Quote:

That's not really a fair estimation of the situation prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, and the DPRK had already fallen well behind the ROK at that point.

And it's also not really fair to bomb every single standing building and machine gun/drop napalm on citizens, then put apply a stranglehold through economic sanctions and run massive war games a kilometer or two from shared borders...then you wonder why things haven't developed smoothly...well, take a stroll the next time you're in the UK or the states to a ghetto/slum area, and tell me how smooth things are going there. They're not given adequate access to resources, are also villainized/basically shunned, and live under constant surveillance/threat of attack from the cops...Are u going to complain to someone that they've fallen behind, and don't provide enough opportunities for their people?

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject:

Stout wrote:

It's to the point where just about everyone can see what you're made of, especially when you make classy comments like how you ended your last post.
Well, carry on, soldier boy.

You can't answer the points made so you've resorted to name-calling.

Quote:

And it's also not really fair to ... run massive war games a kilometer or two from shared borders...then you wonder why things haven't developed smoothly...

Actually it is only such a show of american military force that has kept the peace. The last time they did as you recommend and withdrew.. then a massive war happened. Remember?

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject:

Stout wrote:

Now check out any of the demonstrations to do with FTA or whatnot, and ask any of the South Koreans there if they are glad the US has "cultivated" their ally and built "democracy".

Pretty narrow sampling of Koreans, no?

Perhaps you need to hang out with business ppl and the like to get feel for the other side?

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