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ayahyaha
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: Appropriate penalties for a disciplinary system? |
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I am going to implement a yellow card/red card system (yellow card = warning; red card = second offence, penalty) in my younger classes and I am brainstorming a list of possible penalties.
The penalties should be something slightly annoying or embarrassing but nothing over the top. I don't want to humiliate the kids -- I just want them to not repeat whatever behavior warranted the red card.
Any ideas? Sometimes it's hard to know where the line is with Korean kids. I know it varies from student to student, too, but I'm looking for a general list.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Some examples of what I do NOT want to subject them to:
-- Hop like a bunny
-- Stand with hands above his/her head (or arms extended)
-- Stand in the corner
Some ideas I had: (Scalable for the severity of the offence)
-- 10~20 jumping jacks in front of the class
-- Designated board eraser for the class/week (assuming they don't like to do that)
-- Having to push all the chairs in and straighten the desks after class (before everyone can leave the classroom) |
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tigershark
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| not bad... i would give a warning then give the yellow then red. |
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ayahyaha
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: |
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I'll see how it goes. My plan was to throw out some yellows and hopefully a red to show how the system works.
Within a short period of time, I ought to be able to just reach for the card in my pocket, and that would stop them mid-[insert obnoxious behavior here]. No warning necessary.
(Thank you Premier League football.) |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Write the student's name out in red marker/chalk in the top corner of the whiteboard, in Korean. First offense gets his family name, second gets the first half of his given name, and third offense gets his full name up there, in red (OOOoooo) for all to see. Leave it up there all day for other classes to enjoy, erasing it only before you go home. For an added touch, write the name with a drippy font, like blood.
This may lead to your firing, depending upon how knowledgeable about the past the kid is, so use with caution.
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Carbon wrote: |
| This may lead to your firing, depending upon how knowledgeable about the past the kid is, so use with caution. |
Any punishment whatsoever could lead to your firing.
Korean kids are not used to being told what to do, especially by a foreigner and if you upset them then they can get you fired. Its fairly easy to tell stories to mummy and get her to ring your school.
let the kids run riot and keep hold of your job. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Appropriate penalties for a disciplinary system? |
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| ayahyaha wrote: |
I am going to implement a yellow card/red card system (yellow card = warning; red card = second offence, penalty) in my younger classes and I am brainstorming a list of possible penalties.
The penalties should be something slightly annoying or embarrassing but nothing over the top. I don't want to humiliate the kids -- I just want them to not repeat whatever behavior warranted the red card.
Any ideas? Sometimes it's hard to know where the line is with Korean kids. I know it varies from student to student, too, but I'm looking for a general list.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Some examples of what I do NOT want to subject them to:
-- Hop like a bunny
-- Stand with hands above his/her head (or arms extended)
-- Stand in the corner
Some ideas I had: (Scalable for the severity of the offence)
-- 10~20 jumping jacks in front of the class
-- Designated board eraser for the class/week (assuming they don't like to do that)
-- Having to push all the chairs in and straighten the desks after class (before everyone can leave the classroom) |
Not bad OP!
I would run this by the supervisor before you implement it however.
I would personaly drop the jumping jacks as thats a bit extreme.
Anyway, like any system of classroom management, the key is stay the course and apply the rules evenly. You also need to be calm when you punish students. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Carbon wrote: |
| This may lead to your firing, depending upon how knowledgeable about the past the kid is, so use with caution. |
Any punishment whatsoever could lead to your firing.
Korean kids are not used to being told what to do, especially by a foreigner and if you upset them then they can get you fired. Its fairly easy to tell stories to mummy and get her to ring your school.
let the kids run riot and keep hold of your job. |
Whatever, that's a load of baloney.
Korean kids are disciplined all the time, even (gasp!) by foreign teachers.
As for the OP-
Don't try to make it humorous or funny, you aren't their friend or reluctant boss. You are their teacher and them listening and following you and respecting the class is priority #1.
Remember if the punishment is of minimal consequence, then breaking the rules is of minimal consequence to the students.
A good way to think about this is to think "Would I do my punishment in order to get 50% off at Burger King?" I'd sure do 10-20 jumping jacks or erase a chalkboard or push in some chairs and straighten the desks. I can do that in like 30 seconds.
Kids fear and dislike the following-
Public Humiliation/Friend Abandonment- This is best accomplished by punishing everyone for the actions of a single person. "Class- Homework. Why? Soo-Jin. Angry? Talk to Soo-Jin."
Intellectual/Physical Labor- Make em take out the trash and scrub the trash can. Do something that also messes with their sense of revulsion.
Their Parents- Call home. Make it mom's problem. Or dad's belt's problem.
Pain/Discomfort- Think of something barely legal under local law. Doesn't have to be physical pain.
Lack of Freedom- Take away break time. Or even better let the good students go and make the bad one stay and make sure their friends don't stick around waiting for them.
Now would I do anything above for 50% off at Burger King? Have my friends despise me? Be isolated from them? Have Burger King call my mom? Scrub the Burger King trash can?
| Quote: |
| I don't want to humiliate the kids -- I just want them to not repeat whatever behavior warranted the red card. |
Might have to do the former to achieve the latter.
The key with all of this is to be fair and firm and calm when doing it. |
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ayahyaha
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Well, this took a turn that I had not anticipated. I just thought people might have some good ideas.
@Carbon: Thankfully someone told me not to write kids' names in red before I ever started teaching in Korea. I don't use red ink as a teacher anyhow except on the white board for important notations.
@Julius:
| Julius wrote: |
| let the kids run riot and keep hold of your job. |
No way. I totally disagree. Letting kids run riot is not an option. I am sure sometimes it's easier but personally, I couldn't stand it. Some *kids* even complain when a teacher has no control.
@PatrickGHBusan:
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I would run this by the supervisor before you implement it however. |
Agreed that it's good protocol to run such a system by a supervisor, yes. However, (luckily) I have the freedom to do as I see fit in my job.
| Quote: |
| I would personaly drop the jumping jacks as thats a bit extreme. |
I suppose it always depends on the situation and the personality of the students. My classes already do this voluntarily (it was their idea) as part of a point bargaining system for team games. Most of them hate the jumping jacks but will do them for a prize or something.
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| Anyway, like any system of classroom management, the key is stay the course and apply the rules evenly. You also need to be calm when you punish students. |
Agreed, and that's sage advice for any teacher, especially in Korea. As for remaining calm, I am pretty sure that any yelling or uncontrolled anger is a failure on my part. A good teacher keeps his or her cool almost all of the time.
Let me clarify, too, that I don't have any major problems with these kids. I am just looking for a way to control some spots of disruptive behavior without interrupting the flow of the class. I would prefer something wordless and dramatic, but that only takes a few seconds -- and that allows me to keep teaching all the while.
Steelrails gets his/her own post. |
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ayahyaha
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:07 am Post subject: |
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@Steelrails:
You make some extremely good points and I started off agreeing with you, but by the end of your post I was disappointed.
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but aren't your ideas a bit over-the-top?
In my initial post I mentioned hopping like a bunny as a penalty that I will not use -- that's because my old boss used to make his students hop like a bunny when they misbehaved, and he drove kids to tears. Total humiliation. Not cool. We're teachers -- even if we are babysitters a lot of the time, we shouldn't be out to mess them up.
| Quote: |
Don't try to make it humorous or funny, you aren't their friend or reluctant boss. You are their teacher and them listening and following you and respecting the class is priority #1.
Remember if the punishment is of minimal consequence, then breaking the rules is of minimal consequence to the students. |
Right and right. However, that's why I was looking for a list of penalties that were *just* annoying enough, but not humiliating or painful. I'm talking about 8 to 12 year olds, here.
| Quote: |
| A good way to think about this is to think "Would I do my punishment in order to get 50% off at Burger King?" I'd sure do 10-20 jumping jacks or erase a chalkboard or push in some chairs and straighten the desks. I can do that in like 30 seconds. |
Your analogy would help more if I ever ate at Burger King. But I take your point.
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Kids fear and dislike the following-
Public Humiliation/Friend Abandonment- This is best accomplished by punishing everyone for the actions of a single person. "Class- Homework. Why? Soo-Jin. Angry? Talk to Soo-Jin." |
Agreed, but I reserve this kind of punishment for more severe cases, especially if the kid is already the wangda. Knowingly subjecting a kid to the disdain of his or her entire class kind of sucks. I've done it a few times with kids who really needed training on controlling themselves, and who needed that kind of pressure and could handle it. I won't further alienate a kid who is already probably on the fringes because he's hyperactive or something.
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| Intellectual/Physical Labor- Make em take out the trash and scrub the trash can. Do something that also messes with their sense of revulsion. |
Agreed again, but also not so extreme again. I'll make a kid pick up all the bits of paper in the room if I saw him or her making a mess. I'll make a kid do an annoying classroom-related chore in particular if they tried to take advantage of the space somehow (graffiti, hiding something of mine, breaking something, etc.).
[quote]Their Parents- Call home. Make it mom's problem. Or dad's belt's problem.[quote]
To do this is to admit defeat. Not that it's impossible, but it would take a seriously awful student for this to happen. Also, this would be laying the responsibility on my co-teacher, and she's got enough sh*t to deal with.
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| Pain/Discomfort- Think of something barely legal under local law. Doesn't have to be physical pain. |
Are you just messing with me?
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| Lack of Freedom- Take away break time. Or even better let the good students go and make the bad one stay and make sure their friends don't stick around waiting for them. |
Sure. Making a kid stay for a few minutes after class is torture. The only problem with this is that I want the penalty to occur at the same time as the offence, in order to associate the two. Waiting too long after an action to punish it just makes them hate you. This also eats into my time.
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| I don't want to humiliate the kids -- I just want them to not repeat whatever behavior warranted the red card. |
Might have to do the former to achieve the latter.
The key with all of this is to be fair and firm and calm when doing it. |
No and yes. Like I said, maybe I'm taking this all too seriously, but it's been on my mind a lot lately and I am convinced -- from experience -- that it's possible to control a classroom mindfully. There are many ways to accomplish this and most of them don't involve words, parents, or humiliation.
Anyway, I appreciate the response. Food for thought. |
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plato's republic
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Ancient Greece
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| I worked at a hagwon in Seoul a few years ago run by a Korean who used to be in the army before he became a hagwon boss. He used to make kids who misbehaved do sit-ups and push-ups until their arms could no longer take the strain. Needless to say they were too tired to act up in class afterwards. Not suggesting you should follow this tactic, but it was effective. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Right and right. However, that's why I was looking for a list of penalties that were *just* annoying enough, |
Well for the normal kids, those punishments that you suggested are perfectly fine and effective.
But I was assuming you were more concerned with "the problem kids".
I should have made that clear and I didn't.
If the problem kids have to choose between doing jumping jacks or erasing the board and not doing their homework/running wild for 45 minutes, what do we expect them to choose? They may be rambunctious, but they aren't stupid.
In middle school the school made kids do "lunch detention" by working in the cafeteria. This was no punishment to me because it meant my gluttonous butt could get extra helpings plus it was kinda fun (as a 12 year old) to do such a good job that the cafeteria ladies found themselves conflicted over me being in there.
Now if someone had made me run laps around the gym instead of that....
The point is rule #1- You will respect the teacher in the class and obey them. When they say "Be Quiet". Be quiet.
Start strong and firm, and then you can go soft. I'm a softie these days with all of my veteran students. But they all know the line and they don't cross it, and the occasional new student who does try to cross it is put into place by them and not by me.
That and balance the idealism with realism. It sucks that human beings respond to pain as a method of discipline. But it's true. It's not always effective, but for some students it is. Some students don't care about other things but they respond to that. Well, if you leave me no other choice....
Put it this way- the other students' right to a good learning environment trumps their right to not experience a few minutes of physical discomfort or emotional pain.
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| I am convinced -- from experience -- that it's possible to control a classroom mindfully. There are many ways to accomplish this and most of them don't involve words, parents, or humiliation. |
Right...but clearly something is amiss or you would not be on here soliciting advice...
Regardless, take what I've said with a grain of salt, you know your students and your school. Your methods are fine for the 90% of kids out there and be happy that your methods ARE good. But that other 10%...be open to the, well, darker side of things for dealing with them. The 90% deserve a good classroom. Fight for them. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Kids fear and dislike the following-
Public Humiliation/Friend Abandonment- This is best accomplished by punishing everyone for the actions of a single person. "Class- Homework. Why? Soo-Jin. Angry? Talk to Soo-Jin."
Intellectual/Physical Labor- Make em take out the trash and scrub the trash can. Do something that also messes with their sense of revulsion.
Their Parents- Call home. Make it mom's problem. Or dad's belt's problem.
Pain/Discomfort- Think of something barely legal under local law. Doesn't have to be physical pain.
Lack of Freedom- Take away break time. Or even better let the good students go and make the bad one stay and make sure their friends don't stick around waiting for them. |
All that depends on your boss permitting or supporting you with such punishments in the first place.
Most hakwon directors are too scared to do anything that might offend their customers. If a parent calls in to complain, they automatically take the students/ parents side against the teacher. Yes there are are some good bosses that have your back but they are few and far between.
For the most part they are ordering you to do a very difficult job while denying you any tools.
This leaves most teachers to risk their jobs, or invite lawsuits just to carry out basic discipline. To devise ever wackier and convoluted mind games to keep control. Things have gotten crazier and riskier since they abolished the stick. At private institutes or government schools, in Korea or the west, teaching has become a job for masochists with a flair for living dangerously.
This is the way it goes in the profit-driven korean hogwon game. If you haven't realised that yet then you must be posting from siberia or somewhere.
Last edited by Julius on Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Kids fear and dislike the following-
Public Humiliation/Friend Abandonment- This is best accomplished by punishing everyone for the actions of a single person. "Class- Homework. Why? Soo-Jin. Angry? Talk to Soo-Jin."
Intellectual/Physical Labor- Make em take out the trash and scrub the trash can. Do something that also messes with their sense of revulsion.
Their Parents- Call home. Make it mom's problem. Or dad's belt's problem.
Pain/Discomfort- Think of something barely legal under local law. Doesn't have to be physical pain.
Lack of Freedom- Take away break time. Or even better let the good students go and make the bad one stay and make sure their friends don't stick around waiting for them. |
All that depends on your boss permitting or supporting you with such punishments in the first place.
Most hakwon directors are too scared to do anything that might offend their customers. If a parent calls in to complain, they automatically take the students/ parents side against the teacher. Yes there are are some good bosses that have your back but they are few and far between.
For the most part they are ordering you to do a very difficult job while denying you any tools.
This leaves most teachers to risk their jobs, or invite lawsuits just to carry out basic discipline. Things have gotten crazier and riskier since they abolished the stick. At private institutes or government schools, in Korea or the west, teaching has become a job for masochists with a flair for living dangerously.
This is the way it goes in the profit-driven korean hogwon game. If you haven't realised that yet then you must be posting from siberia or somewhere. |
Never worked in a Hagwon so I wouldn't have much more to say than "Smile, nod, and get paid." |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Whichever genius fixed the educational system to criminalise teachers for trying to control their students deserves to be hunted down and shot in the street.
Withdrawing corporal punishment has left the educational system, and a whole generation so messed up that it makes your head spin.
What is ironic is that all the mental mind games teachers invent to try and manipulate kids actually equals emotional abuse.
Humiliating a child in front of his peers with words is far more damaging in my book than a swift caning.
The latter is over in seconds and averts a lifetime of degeneracy. The former teaches kids that its OK to verbally abuse others.
I know there was a sea change in opinion around the 1960's but most of that was drug-fuelled.
Surely now with a collapsing western social fabric its time to call off the experiment and return to what works? |
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sbp59
Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere in SK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Exercise gets the blood moving and wakes the kids up even more and sometimes causes more behavior problems. |
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