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Koreans Unsatisfied with NETs in Public Schools
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english puppet



Joined: 04 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julius wrote:
austrian123 wrote:
You are al delusional. Doesnt matter what type of certifications you have...the students CANT understand FETs...that is why FETs are useless unless the students pose an avanced level of understanding which most dont. Students will only be able to understand if the teacher shares a common language with the student. You guys crack me up.


Thats why CELTA teaches you how to instill a language without using a shared language.

Qualifications exist for a reason (although Korea would never know). A job to them is about politics and appearances, nothing more.


Agreed (+ 10) and this one of those, odd, Korea specific perspectives. SIT course also teaches you how to teach outside of common language in the classroom. In a number of places ESL teachers must teach classes with a number of students from different countries.

I correspond with a Phd director out of the mid-East who was laughing when I told him about the Powerpoint obsession that seems to grip all approaches here. His one memory of someone he interviewed from SK was guy couldn't seem to function away from a PPT presentation. Powerpoint = Jesus here for some reason. Again, just one more oddity of working in Korea and not indicative of the bigger picture.

Will it change here? Hard to imagine in the near future. There's no appetite or imagination for it and the few who try something else get the message quick where their allegiances should be.
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transmogrifier



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Powerpoint. Just like any tool in the classroom, it can be used well or poorly, but is not bad in and of itself. I always just laugh at those who treat it as some sort of scary monster that is destroying teaching. It's just pointless hysteria masquerading as a "I know best" attitude.

You might as well rail against flashcards, textbooks, cloze exercises, whole class discussions etc.
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english puppet



Joined: 04 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

transmogrifier wrote:
I like Powerpoint. Just like any tool in the classroom, it can be used well or poorly, but is not bad in and of itself. I always just laugh at those who treat it as some sort of scary monster that is destroying teaching. It's just pointless hysteria masquerading as a "I know best" attitude.

You might as well rail against flashcards, textbooks, cloze exercises, whole class discussions etc.


In general, I don't disagree with you. I don't consider PPT to be a scary monster either. It's basically an electronic flashcard as you're suggesting. But I don't think it's neutral as a technology and other things start getting pushed aside for it.

It may be an exception ( I hope it is actually) but I've been chastised for using reality (ie. a pencil) instead of showing a pencil in a ppt.

There's no reason for it educationally - it's just part of what I'd call a super rigid approach to thinking about how to educate kids. It's part of a poverty of imagination here or even curiosity on how things might be different - or how NET"s might be utilized in more interesting or effective ways.
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Guajiro



Joined: 04 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

austrian123 wrote:
You are all delusional. Doesnt matter what type of certifications you have...the students CANT understand FETs...that is why FETs are useless unless the students possess an avanced level of understanding which most dont. Students will only be able to understand if the teacher shares a common language with the student. You guys crack me up.


Even if the teacher shares a common language, that does not necessarily translate into success in learning a second language.

I think of French as a Second Language education in Canada as an example of how this approach does not really work either. Most students in English Canada are learning French in school from a young age (often grade 4, sometimes sooner). Most students are forced to continue studying French until at least grade 9, some later. Most students (at least the students I have known) can barely put together a sentence in French even after six years of French classes with highly trained teachers who are bilingual in English and French. Most certainly cannot have a conversation in French.

The problem probably lies in the motivation. The majority of Anglophone Canadians are perfectly happy to not speak a word of French, and refuse to put in the effort to become bilingual.

The students who study French immersion, all subjects in French, tend to show significant improvement. That said, not even immersion produces results if the motivation is lacking. Just look at all of the English teachers in Korea who are not able to hold a conversation in Korean.

I guess my point is that it is foolish to expect all students to meet such high expectations in the current system, no matter the qualifications of the teacher. Either change the system, or lower the expectations.
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english puppet



Joined: 04 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guajiro,

Hadn't heard the Canadian example before but it's a great one.

As others have pointed out in other posts, the English program here is overly ambitious to begin. Regardless of how useful it might be later in life a lot of people aren't motivated or have other things taking their energy etc..

In a way, it's that pressure (added to all of the other pressures here) that makes it as kooky an issue as it is. My KT the other day admitted that the reason she piles on vocabulary is mostly about impressing parents or admn that she's teaching "a lot" - as if language was doled out by the pound or something. The fact it's an insanely unmanageable number of new words and the kids are totally baffled are secondary issues at best.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

english puppet wrote:
Guajiro,

Hadn't heard the Canadian example before but it's a great one.



Actually, it's one of the classic examples since the guy who's considered by many as the father of motivation in second language learning research is Canadian.

http://publish.uwo.ca/~gardner/
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

transmogrifier wrote:
I like Powerpoint. Just like any tool in the classroom, it can be used well or poorly, but is not bad in and of itself. I always just laugh at those who treat it as some sort of scary monster that is destroying teaching. It's just pointless hysteria masquerading as a "I know best" attitude.

You might as well rail against flashcards, textbooks, cloze exercises, whole class discussions etc.


I don't use power point with my students who are high school students and have limited English. I would possibly use it with intermediate learners. However, it could be beneficial because you can put pictures on there. Some people overuse power points, but they're definitely valuable in some cases.
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english puppet



Joined: 04 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
english puppet wrote:
Guajiro,

Hadn't heard the Canadian example before but it's a great one.



Actually, it's one of the classic examples since the guy who's considered by many as the father of motivation in second language learning research is Canadian.

http://publish.uwo.ca/~gardner/


Interesting - thanks for sharing the info. I'll check it out.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not in the PowerPoint is evil camp either but it is overused here. It's like in every lesson I've seen here from Korean teachers there has to be a PPT, a youtube clip and some pictures of Yuna Kim, Park Ji Sun or K Pop stars. Otherwise, the teachers claim, the kids won't be interested. Maybe that's true but they should occasionally try to interest them in things beyond their narrow little worlds.
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transmogrifier



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I come from a high school background, so tend to set up the lesson with:

1. Starter activity (either a review of previous lesson, lead in for the lesson to come or an unrelated fun thing like a brainteaser etc)
2. Lesson title and objectives (i.e. what they will learn)
3. Hook (something to get the students engaged in and thinking about the topic, perhaps personalize it, pictures, videos, a class vote etc the options are endless)
4. Key Content (the actual information/skill the students need to know - can be delivered in so many ways, including Q&A, barrier activities, reading tasks, group work, drills etc)
5. Processing (the students take the information/skill learnt from Step 4 and use it in a novel and/or creative way)
6. Assessment (can be done informally at the end as the students wrap up, or as the starter in the following class, or in a scheduled assessment period)

This does not have to be crammed into one session, but could be spread out over 2 or 3 or whatever depending on the topic.

I use Powerpoint as the organizational backbone for this type of lesson, especially in terms of holding the instructions for each step (very useful - they get both verbal input from you and have a written backup) etc. However, it is important that at least two of Steps 3-5 are independent of the Powerpoint once the instructions are given (i.e. you could turn it off and still be able to complete the task). Otherwise you leave yourself open to both technological failure and being too one-dimensional in your task selection.
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motiontodismiss



Joined: 18 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many of these parents that are evaluating NETs have TESOLs or are fluent in English. Many of them don't even know what the result of a good NET looks like; I wonder on what basis they're judging NET's. The Korean teachers are SO competent and that's why most of these kids that have perfect scores on the TOEIC can't even order a burger at a Burger King stateside. Rolling Eyes

I imagine if they required a TESOL for NET's they'll have to raise wages. As far as fluent bilingual Koreans go, I highly doubt they'll put up with the crap that NET's put up with for the salaries that they get, not to mention most of them don't come back from the anglosphere.


Last edited by motiontodismiss on Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

transmogrifier wrote:
I come from a high school background, so tend to set up the lesson with:

1. Starter activity (either a review of previous lesson, lead in for the lesson to come or an unrelated fun thing like a brainteaser etc)
2. Lesson title and objectives (i.e. what they will learn)
3. Hook (something to get the students engaged in and thinking about the topic, perhaps personalize it, pictures, videos, a class vote etc the options are endless)
4. Key Content (the actual information/skill the students need to know - can be delivered in so many ways, including Q&A, barrier activities, reading tasks, group work, drills etc)
5. Processing (the students take the information/skill learnt from Step 4 and use it in a novel and/or creative way)
6. Assessment (can be done informally at the end as the students wrap up, or as the starter in the following class, or in a scheduled assessment period)

This does not have to be crammed into one session, but could be spread out over 2 or 3 or whatever depending on the topic.

I use Powerpoint as the organizational backbone for this type of lesson, especially in terms of holding the instructions for each step (very useful - they get both verbal input from you and have a written backup) etc. However, it is important that at least two of Steps 3-5 are independent of the Powerpoint once the instructions are given (i.e. you could turn it off and still be able to complete the task). Otherwise you leave yourself open to both technological failure and being too one-dimensional in your task selection.


That's very similar to what I do. For a hook, I like to tell them a personal anecdote or a bit of trivia about my home country, something related to the topic we're studying (I've been telling the same stories for years). They seem to enjoy it.
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transmogrifier



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:

That's very similar to what I do. For a hook, I like to tell them a personal anecdote or a bit of trivia about my home country, something related to the topic we're studying (I've been telling the same stories for years). They seem to enjoy it.


Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward way to tackle a lesson, and makes it super easy to plan once you nail down Step 4 - the Key Content they are supposed to master. Everything else follows from that, and it's just a matter of changing up the activities associated with each step to keep the lesson varied and interesting (while also practicing different sub-ordinate skills associated with the type of task chosen - e.g. a group task to obtain the Key Content will also allow them practice their communication skills with each other without it being a specified object of the lesson)
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Carbon



Joined: 28 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

english puppet wrote:


Interesting - thanks for sharing the info. I'll check it out.


D�rnyei is much more relevant. Gardner's work was indeed focused on Canada, which is ESL, in a strict sense. Here in Korea, we are in an EFL environment and while many may argue that this is splitting hairs, they are very different concepts. Immersion (or exposure) is the low hanging fruit.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/english/people/zoltan.dornyei
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english puppet



Joined: 04 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

transmogrifier wrote:
I come from a high school background, so tend to set up the lesson with:

1. Starter activity (either a review of previous lesson, lead in for the lesson to come or an unrelated fun thing like a brainteaser etc)
2. Lesson title and objectives (i.e. what they will learn)
3. Hook (something to get the students engaged in and thinking about the topic, perhaps personalize it, pictures, videos, a class vote etc the options are endless)
4. Key Content (the actual information/skill the students need to know - can be delivered in so many ways, including Q&A, barrier activities, reading tasks, group work, drills etc)
5. Processing (the students take the information/skill learnt from Step 4 and use it in a novel and/or creative way)
6. Assessment (can be done informally at the end as the students wrap up, or as the starter in the following class, or in a scheduled assessment period)

This does not have to be crammed into one session, but could be spread out over 2 or 3 or whatever depending on the topic.

I use Powerpoint as the organizational backbone for this type of lesson, especially in terms of holding the instructions for each step (very useful - they get both verbal input from you and have a written backup) etc. However, it is important that at least two of Steps 3-5 are independent of the Powerpoint once the instructions are given (i.e. you could turn it off and still be able to complete the task). Otherwise you leave yourself open to both technological failure and being too one-dimensional in your task selection.


It sounds like you have a really reasonable approach.

This goes back to the topic posted - if NET's (not all but many) are interested in teaching English in a thoughtful way (I'm sure there's a lot of other good approaches out there) what else would the schools want or expect? What else would parents be expecting if they're in fact objecting?

If the system just wants a repeat of what's been tried ( and didn't work well) it's the most conscious waste of money I may have ever seen.
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