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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
Look, Japan made the Jet program to "introduce the Japanese to foreingers." Korea's english education has stated no such thing, and has no intentions. Its more of a by-product.
Personally, I hope they keep on being afraid of foreigners and keep being nationalists for at least another 20 years. Keep that head down and eyes on those books.
Thats how we can keep making money.... |
Speaking of the JET program...doesn't seem to be doing all that well.
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| The influential author and mathematician Masahiko Fujiwara even says that Japanese should be proud that their scores on the Toefl, the test that assesses English proficiency of non-native speakers, rank among the lowest in Asia |
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/opinion/06iht-edkumiko.3802078.html
Sure this was back in 2006 (almost 2007) but have things really changed that much in 5 years? |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
Look, Japan made the Jet program to "introduce the Japanese to foreingers." Korea's english education has stated no such thing, and has no intentions. Its more of a by-product.
Personally, I hope they keep on being afraid of foreigners and keep being nationalists for at least another 20 years. Keep that head down and eyes on those books.
Thats how we can keep making money.... |
Speaking of the JET program...doesn't seem to be doing all that well.
| Quote: |
| The influential author and mathematician Masahiko Fujiwara even says that Japanese should be proud that their scores on the Toefl, the test that assesses English proficiency of non-native speakers, rank among the lowest in Asia |
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/opinion/06iht-edkumiko.3802078.html
Sure this was back in 2006 (almost 2007) but have things really changed that much in 5 years? |
totally different situation. the average japanese doesnt care at all about english. they can go anywhere and there will be a japanese speaker (tourist areas). china may be the next to get the luxury. Korea, the point of all of this is so they can get those coveted "korean" jobs. Not so they can communicate with foreigners. Thats a big point. In Japan, alot of foriegners speak Japanese, because the Japanese are worth while to talk to, I feel. In Korea, I have 3 friends I talk to ion Korea, a bunch of poeple I have to speak to in Korean, and almost noone else I really have anything to share with. Japanese has alot more freedom in expression, but modern Korean is still very confucianist and constricting. Its hard to express my self in Korean, esp when most poeple wouldnt be open to hearing it. They just check to see how "Korean" I am.
which is good, it keeps their communication levels in English way low and us employed, and that wont change too soon.
jet isnt doing well, because it just isnt needed. theres enough hagwons there. in japan, not everyone wants to go to the same school. the education system there is similar to koreas, but the people arent. the japanese dont worry about being japanese. Thats a difference here. I feel |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
But yes, Koreans generally usually dont recognize anything I do, except my Korean language skills. I know alot about Korea history, etc, but they dont like me to speak of it. Ive been at my job for 8 + years, I built alot of the programs back in the day that they still use, but unless the boss is directly there telling them to take my advice, they wont listen.
haha I was told to ask a young teacher, who hasnt had a full 2 years experience (vs my 15+), how to do a program that I made! When I told her that, she went and told the boss I wouldnt let her teach me!
Of course, the whole point of that is she wanted to be the boss.
All communication is about power here. In Japan, there is a much bigger idea exchange. Maybe not the boss, but there, its alot more about info between people.
Communication here is quite passive, and reactive. I was thinking this again today. How to NOT get into trouble. Not HOW to impress the boss, students.
passive (korea) vs active (japan)
.. |
It's rather odd that a a fairly new teacher would order you, knowing fully well your level of experience and your age. I suspect, however, that she was merely following orders from her 'boss' (was this in hagwon or something?). Age matters a great deal in Korea, as I'm sure you know, so it is very uncommon for a much younger teacher to order a much older one around, this applies to foreigners just as well.)
I'm sure you're aware of what happened at Olympus in Japan with the foreign CEO. The whole 'sharing of ideas' concept has not been as widely embraced in Japan as you claim.
Furthermore, if judging by the language alone, Japanese has even more levels of politeness than Korean. In other words, power plays as big of a role in Japanese language as it does in Korean.
I've spoken to a number of people who work/worked in Japan. Many are often expected to work as robots. Criticizing ideas, or a higher ups is not seen as an acceptable behavior.
It's not to say that Japan is such a horrible place, but if one were to compare these aspects of Japan to Korea, the difference is very minimal. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
But yes, Koreans generally usually dont recognize anything I do, except my Korean language skills. I know alot about Korea history, etc, but they dont like me to speak of it. Ive been at my job for 8 + years, I built alot of the programs back in the day that they still use, but unless the boss is directly there telling them to take my advice, they wont listen.
haha I was told to ask a young teacher, who hasnt had a full 2 years experience (vs my 15+), how to do a program that I made! When I told her that, she went and told the boss I wouldnt let her teach me!
Of course, the whole point of that is she wanted to be the boss.
All communication is about power here. In Japan, there is a much bigger idea exchange. Maybe not the boss, but there, its alot more about info between people.
Communication here is quite passive, and reactive. I was thinking this again today. How to NOT get into trouble. Not HOW to impress the boss, students.
passive (korea) vs active (japan)
.. |
It's rather odd that a a fairly new teacher would order you, knowing fully well your level of experience and your age. I suspect, however, that she was merely following orders from her 'boss' (was this in hagwon or something?). Age matters a great deal in Korea, as I'm sure you know, so it is very uncommon for a much younger teacher to order a much older one around, this applies to foreigners just as well.)
I'm sure you're aware of what happened at Olympus in Japan with the foreign CEO. The whole 'sharing of ideas' concept has not been as widely embraced in Japan as you claim.
Furthermore, if judging by the language alone, Japanese has even more levels of politeness than Korean. In other words, power plays as big of a role in Japanese language as it does in Korean.
I've spoken to a number of people who work/worked in Japan. Many are often expected to work as robots. Criticizing ideas, or a higher ups is not seen as an acceptable behavior.
It's not to say that Japan is such a horrible place, but if one were to compare these aspects of Japan to Korea, the difference is very minimal. |
In the work culture, Japanese and Korean are very similar. The whole "nail that sticks out gets hammered down" mentality. They both work long hours, they both rely heavily on seniority, and you will not find many "horizontal" power structures.
It also depends on the work place. A teacher is a teacher. You could have 20 years experience or 1 year experience. You are just a teacher. It isn't until you get that title of "head Teacher" or director that you are elevated to a higher position.
So Happiness, you could've been there for 15+ years, but your title is the same as the young teacher that has been there for 2. Your director sees you as the same as all the other cattle ...I mean teachers. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Many of those comments made at the link could have been made about Korea/Koreans. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: |
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yeah, well, the age thing, no no, they know me too well, theyre friendly and most are repsectful, but theres a few....the bossing around a whitey thing is quite a thrill for some koreans....oh well..im used to it now....
a corporate structure in j and k is similar, im speaking more of the personal relationships angle...
haha, 15 years, and yes, im treated sometimes just like 15 weeks. oh well, korea doesnt offer the deals it does because its a rosy place to be... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| maximmm wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
But yes, Koreans generally usually dont recognize anything I do, except my Korean language skills. I know alot about Korea history, etc, but they dont like me to speak of it. Ive been at my job for 8 + years, I built alot of the programs back in the day that they still use, but unless the boss is directly there telling them to take my advice, they wont listen.
haha I was told to ask a young teacher, who hasnt had a full 2 years experience (vs my 15+), how to do a program that I made! When I told her that, she went and told the boss I wouldnt let her teach me!
Of course, the whole point of that is she wanted to be the boss.
All communication is about power here. In Japan, there is a much bigger idea exchange. Maybe not the boss, but there, its alot more about info between people.
Communication here is quite passive, and reactive. I was thinking this again today. How to NOT get into trouble. Not HOW to impress the boss, students.
passive (korea) vs active (japan)
.. |
It's rather odd that a a fairly new teacher would order you, knowing fully well your level of experience and your age. I suspect, however, that she was merely following orders from her 'boss' (was this in hagwon or something?). Age matters a great deal in Korea, as I'm sure you know, so it is very uncommon for a much younger teacher to order a much older one around, this applies to foreigners just as well.)
I'm sure you're aware of what happened at Olympus in Japan with the foreign CEO. The whole 'sharing of ideas' concept has not been as widely embraced in Japan as you claim.
Furthermore, if judging by the language alone, Japanese has even more levels of politeness than Korean. In other words, power plays as big of a role in Japanese language as it does in Korean.
I've spoken to a number of people who work/worked in Japan. Many are often expected to work as robots. Criticizing ideas, or a higher ups is not seen as an acceptable behavior.
It's not to say that Japan is such a horrible place, but if one were to compare these aspects of Japan to Korea, the difference is very minimal. |
In the work culture, Japanese and Korean are very similar. The whole "nail that sticks out gets hammered down" mentality. They both work long hours, they both rely heavily on seniority, and you will not find many "horizontal" power structures.
It also depends on the work place. A teacher is a teacher. You could have 20 years experience or 1 year experience. You are just a teacher. It isn't until you get that title of "head Teacher" or director that you are elevated to a higher position.
So Happiness, you could've been there for 15+ years, but your title is the same as the young teacher that has been there for 2. Your director sees you as the same as all the other cattle ...I mean teachers. |
However, if you have a lot of experience and teach at a university in Korea or Japan, you'll be viewed somewhat differently by the locals and also by other teachers in your field. At least, that has been my experience.
I can't compare living in Japan to living in Korea, but I know a fellow who lived in Korea and couldn't wait to get out because of various problems he had in Korea. He's now having the time of his life from his comments on facebook. I don't think he could be any happier in Japan. Of course, it's not going to be paradise. There will be some cultural issues to deal with at work that foreigners won't like, but the Japanese population seems to be more honest when it comes to honoring contracts and paying you and what not. I could be wrong. I've never lived there, but nobody that I know got shafted over there. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| maximmm wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
But yes, Koreans generally usually dont recognize anything I do, except my Korean language skills. I know alot about Korea history, etc, but they dont like me to speak of it. Ive been at my job for 8 + years, I built alot of the programs back in the day that they still use, but unless the boss is directly there telling them to take my advice, they wont listen.
haha I was told to ask a young teacher, who hasnt had a full 2 years experience (vs my 15+), how to do a program that I made! When I told her that, she went and told the boss I wouldnt let her teach me!
Of course, the whole point of that is she wanted to be the boss.
All communication is about power here. In Japan, there is a much bigger idea exchange. Maybe not the boss, but there, its alot more about info between people.
Communication here is quite passive, and reactive. I was thinking this again today. How to NOT get into trouble. Not HOW to impress the boss, students.
passive (korea) vs active (japan)
.. |
It's rather odd that a a fairly new teacher would order you, knowing fully well your level of experience and your age. I suspect, however, that she was merely following orders from her 'boss' (was this in hagwon or something?). Age matters a great deal in Korea, as I'm sure you know, so it is very uncommon for a much younger teacher to order a much older one around, this applies to foreigners just as well.)
I'm sure you're aware of what happened at Olympus in Japan with the foreign CEO. The whole 'sharing of ideas' concept has not been as widely embraced in Japan as you claim.
Furthermore, if judging by the language alone, Japanese has even more levels of politeness than Korean. In other words, power plays as big of a role in Japanese language as it does in Korean.
I've spoken to a number of people who work/worked in Japan. Many are often expected to work as robots. Criticizing ideas, or a higher ups is not seen as an acceptable behavior.
It's not to say that Japan is such a horrible place, but if one were to compare these aspects of Japan to Korea, the difference is very minimal. |
In the work culture, Japanese and Korean are very similar. The whole "nail that sticks out gets hammered down" mentality. They both work long hours, they both rely heavily on seniority, and you will not find many "horizontal" power structures.
It also depends on the work place. A teacher is a teacher. You could have 20 years experience or 1 year experience. You are just a teacher. It isn't until you get that title of "head Teacher" or director that you are elevated to a higher position.
So Happiness, you could've been there for 15+ years, but your title is the same as the young teacher that has been there for 2. Your director sees you as the same as all the other cattle ...I mean teachers. |
However, if you have a lot of experience and teach at a university in Korea or Japan, you'll be viewed somewhat differently by the locals and also by other teachers in your field. At least, that has been my experience.
I can't compare living in Japan to living in Korea, but I know a fellow who lived in Korea and couldn't wait to get out because of various problems he had in Korea. He's now having the time of his life from his comments on facebook. I don't think he could be any happier in Japan. Of course, it's not going to be paradise. There will be some cultural issues to deal with at work that foreigners won't like, but the Japanese population seems to be more honest when it comes to honoring contracts and paying you and what not. I could be wrong. I've never lived there, but nobody that I know got shafted over there. |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Only glanced at this thread but two of the points a) Foreigners in Japan learning more of the local language and b) Japan lagging behind Korea in English skills are IMO connected.
In 5 years teaching in Korea I probably broke bread with 100 foreigners, out of them I'd say 5 spoke Korean fluently (not counting gyopos) whilst some might think this lazy and disrespectful of the host culture (I'm on the fence) it did provide some 'tough love' for Korean ESL students. I never heard Korean spoken in class from any of my western co-workers or the classes I observed.
In Japan, most of the the NETs have a huge interest in learning Japanese, which is all well and good and a significant number become proficent, however there are a lot who somewhat overestimate their JSL skills and rather than practicing in their free time use a lot of their class time as an excuse to show off their (frankly unimpressive) Japanese rather than help the kids with their English. From the classes I've observed JET teachers are the worst culprits.
Since I've arrived in Japan I've noticed an increased sense of importance from the education authorites, parents and businesses over the past few years to improve the English level of the next generation. Unfortunatly this coincides with the country being broke so cuts are coming in both public and private sectors.
Another huge factor is Koreans are far more open minded towards overseas study, especially at a young age. |
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toby99
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Location: Dong-Incheon-by-the-sea, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Japan seems to have been the hot place in the 80s through the early 2000s, but now Korea seems to be a better place to teach ESL. Japan is broke, aging, expensive, and depending on who you ask has worse food.
On the other hand, Korea is a great place to party, relatively cheap to get around, has a youthful vibe, and the expat community is much, much less populated your nerdy, comic book addicted chumps and attracts a wide range of exaptes (frat guys, writers, etc.). There used to be a certain arrogance among the Japan ESLer community on the message boards, but I find that arrogance to be largely unwarranted in 2012. Japan has much more of a niche appeal to westerners these days, and Korea seems to be overtaking the country in terms of popularity on a near-daily basis.
Dae-han-min-guk: 1, Il-bon: 0 |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Japan is broke?
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I just got the impression that in Japan (as in China) it is really hard to communicate with only English and/or just a little local language ability, but somewhat easier in Korea, in general, at least in bigger cities. Maybe this contributes to more foreigners learning more of the language. Heard a few foreigners before, in Seoul anyway, say it is much easier to be understood compared to wherever they were in Japan. There (again, similar to China) it seem like one could spend a good while just trying to find someone to understand you if you have something important to ask, something as simple as "Where's a hotel?" -- no doubt a phrasebook would be handy in any case. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| joelove wrote: |
| Japan is broke? |
Funny what some people think huh? 
Japan, far from being broke, is actually suffering from the 'monster yen', which has been curbing exports and forcing companies to reorient themselves into expanding overseas (you see a lot of Japanese companies expanding branches into SE Asia for example). This is because the fundamentals of the Japanese economy are so strong, despite the shaky financial system (and high public debt) - investors still see the Japanese yen as a safe haven. The flip side is that their purchasing power is much higher (in contrast with the won in Korea), which is especially good when you're traveling.
Anyway, that link was kind of interesting. Most of those people couldn't speak Japanese very well and were just rambling about whatever random thing popped into their heads (kind of amusing, like some of the random things you'll hear ESL students say when practicing English)... That Iranian girl spoke quite well though. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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The yen exchange rate is amazing right now. A mil won gets me 560 pounds but 100,000 yen gets me 775 pounds. Good place to be earning right now for an esl teacher imo.
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| Another huge factor is Koreans are far more open minded towards overseas study, especially at a young age. |
Just simply not true. My uni even had a Japanese campus! Plus the Japanese studetns mix with their host countries students much bettter and much more willingly than Koreans overseas ime. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
Lord yes, it's night and day.
It's pretty interesting because today's Japanese people actually came over from Korea, especially the Baekjae nation who were routed in war by the Silla.
Their invasions of Korea can therefore be viewed from a "retaking the motherland" viewpoint, especially when you consider how piss poor and undeserving the Joseon elite were...some Korean historians even claim that the founder of Joseon wasn't actually Korean, which if true would further bolster Baekjae's claims on her original stomping grounds..."reclaiming Korea from barbarians" as it were...(psst make sure u don't mention this in the presence of another Korean...just sayiin'...)
In any case, had Hideyoshi succeeded during the first invasion, it's probably safe to say this would have been quite a different country...not that J-pop, J-fashion, and J-business paradigms (i.e., the auto and video gaming industries) haven't left their mark here, not to mention railway technology, factories, and udon/ takoyaki octopus balls |
I find both this comment and ur previous one a little wayward.
Prostitution in Japan is as "officially" illegal as Korea. Japanese people are DEFINITELY NOT like Korean people - trust me. They look very different. A large portion of Japanese people have a slightly more Polynesian look. Japan is unique in Asia in terms of it's genetic chronology. They generally have longer noses, and shorter legs. I could go on an on about the physically obvious differences between them. I can usually tell the difference between a Korean, Japanese and Han-Chinese person with ease. You can't be right all of the time of course, but a lot!
edit: Not to mention the Ainu of Hokkaido who are most certainly nothing like Koreans ethnically. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| toby99 wrote: |
Japan seems to have been the hot place in the 80s through the early 2000s, but now Korea seems to be a better place to teach ESL. Japan is broke, aging, expensive, and depending on who you ask has worse food.
On the other hand, Korea is a great place to party, relatively cheap to get around, has a youthful vibe, and the expat community is much, much less populated your nerdy, comic book addicted chumps and attracts a wide range of exaptes (frat guys, writers, etc.). There used to be a certain arrogance among the Japan ESLer community on the message boards, but I find that arrogance to be largely unwarranted in 2012. Japan has much more of a niche appeal to westerners these days, and Korea seems to be overtaking the country in terms of popularity on a near-daily basis.
Dae-han-min-guk: 1, Il-bon: 0 |
I'm not sure I'd agree there. A guy I went to university with in West Virginia tried Korea, and he had a very bad experience, so he went to Japan, and he is, in contrast, having the time of his life. He's having a better experience with his employer. You're still more likely to have problems with your employer here than over there. While I would agree with that some parts of Seoul are great for partying and certain parts of Deajeon and Busan, and that Seoul and much of Korea is improving in terms of its appeal to Westerners, Japan is still a better scene and culturally for Westerners in 2012.
Korea still has a long way to go before it overtakes Japan when it comes to popularity. It would need to have more employers compelled to follow contracts instead of breaking the law and the country to be more foreigner friendly. Korea has made tremendous strides. I'll give you that. I'm going based on my life in Korea and from what mates have said about their experiences in Japan even recently.
As far as learning Japanese versus Korean, which is important for people, Japanese is much easier than Korean (spoken Japanese) because the Japanese sound system is much easier. It's sometimes harder to distinguish between words in Korean than in Japanese. In some ways, the Japanese system would have more in common with Spanish than Korean. I don't mean the vocabulary, obviously. That would make it easier for foreigners to pick out Japanese words and understand Japanese. There has also been so much more material out there for learning Japanese than Korean. That has changed dramatically in Korea since 2007 in Korea. In 2006, when I first came, so many of the books available for learning Korea were just horrible. |
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