|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| thrylos wrote: |
| They were the ones that hired(colluded with??) Goldman Sachs to 'cook the books' to show that Greece's deficit was below the necessary threshold to join the Euro. |
This is correct. It is not the case that the Greek people are lazy or unproductive; rather it is the case that Greek banks were loaded up with toxic debt, which they purchased from the likes of Goldman Sachs. When the global financial crisis hit, those "assets" (actually worthless derivatives debt labelled as AAA pure gold by Wall Street firms) were wiped out, leaving Greek banks insolvent. Rather than letting those banks fail, the Greek government bailed them out and put the taxpayer on the hook for all those losses. So now the Greek people get to be financially raped for money that they do not really owe.
| Quote: |
| Europe IS NOT the US...Your Paul-ian response is good for the US, but take another page out of Ron's book and don't try to export his ideology abroad-- apples and oranges. I still think the economist's quote is accurate-- in Greece's case, this 'enclosure' happened during the conservatives' watch, in early 2000's....It's only just now that the 'new owners' have returned and have started fencing off their 'new' properties.... |
Actually I'm pretty sure that Ron Paul is totally against the austerity measures being imposed on Greece and other Eurozone countries. Because it is not simply a matter of cutting spending, it's actually raising taxes and squeezing the public to pay for banker debts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| visitorq wrote: |
| thrylos wrote: |
| They were the ones that hired(colluded with??) Goldman Sachs to 'cook the books' to show that Greece's deficit was below the necessary threshold to join the Euro. |
This is correct. It is not the case that the Greek people are lazy or unproductive; rather it is the case that Greek banks were loaded up with toxic debt, which they purchased from the likes of Goldman Sachs. When the global financial crisis hit, those "assets" (actually worthless derivatives debt labelled as AAA pure gold by Wall Street firms) were wiped out, leaving Greek banks insolvent. Rather than letting those banks fail, the Greek government bailed them out and put the taxpayer on the hook for all those losses. So now the Greek people get to be financially raped for money that they do not really owe. |
Based on everything I've read, this is inaccurate. In the case of Greece, the government was a huge borrower, while its banks continued puttering along as they always had. Michael Lewis has a very detailed examination of what occurred there in his book Boomerang. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thrylos wrote: |
^^ Your problem in this case is that it wasn't ONLY the 'socialists' who did this...(in name only after 1985/6, when Andreas Papandreou --Father of the most recent PM-- gave up on nationalizations and a 'socialist' agenda to become a social democrat in the Western European sense of the word, not the 'revolutionary' kind)
The "conservatives" (New Democracy) were the ones in power in early 2000's, when the euro came into effect. They were the ones that hired(colluded with??) Goldman Sachs to 'cook the books' to show that Greece's deficit was below the necessary threshold to join the Euro.
Europe IS NOT the US...Your Paul-ian response is good for the US, but take another page out of Ron's book and don't try to export his ideology abroad-- apples and oranges. I still think the economist's quote is accurate-- in Greece's case, this 'enclosure' happened during the conservatives' watch, in early 2000's....It's only just now that the 'new owners' have returned and have started fencing off their 'new' properties.... |
Sorry, but the "economist's" quote is not economics at all, but political blather and he is no economist.
Economics is an absolute science, and what applies anywhere applies everywhere, but you have to be a real economist to get it.
The conservatives in Greece are just another form of socialist, and bailing out big banks or small ones or automobile companies or providing subsidies to oil companies or tobacco farmers is socialism and is harmful to the economy just as government provided roads and highways and national-socialist health care. They are all bad for the economy and for the 99% that always loses from socialism - even though they are generally too ignorant, uneducated, befuddled or brainwashed too realize it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thrylos
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ontheway wrote: |
Sorry, but the "economist's" quote is not economics at all, but political blather and he is no economist.
|
That's why I said from a HISTORICAL perspective...
| ontheway wrote: |
| The conservatives in Greece are just another form of socialist, and bailing out big banks or small ones or automobile companies or providing subsidies to oil companies or tobacco farmers is socialism and is harmful to the economy just as government provided roads and highways and national-socialist health care. They are all bad for the economy and for the 99% that always loses from socialism - even though they are generally too ignorant, uneducated, befuddled or brainwashed too realize it. |
OK-- yes, let the good ol' free market take care of all of this... Yeah, it'll work JUST greaaat....
In February, the former PM announced he was going to hold a referendum on the proposed EU bailout reforms and austerity measures-- accept the bailout and shut the f up, or follow Iceland's example, default, drop out of the Euro and move on. All members of the conservatives, sorry, 'closet socialists', were dead against it, as were many in his own party (Your hammer-and-sickle socialists).
The next week, he was out of power, an interim gov't sworn in, austerity measures passed in the 'new' parliament, with the blessing of both the major parties, but WITHOUT PEOPLES' CONSENT....Yes, the 'new owners' of the enclosure (as Michael Hudson calls it) have fenced off the public land, the national parliament bended to the will of the financial interests, and damn them all...Long live all-powerful economics... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thrylos wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Sorry, but the "economist's" quote is not economics at all, but political blather and he is no economist.
|
That's why I said from a HISTORICAL perspective...
| ontheway wrote: |
| The conservatives in Greece are just another form of socialist, and bailing out big banks or small ones or automobile companies or providing subsidies to oil companies or tobacco farmers is socialism and is harmful to the economy just as government provided roads and highways and national-socialist health care. They are all bad for the economy and for the 99% that always loses from socialism - even though they are generally too ignorant, uneducated, befuddled or brainwashed too realize it. |
OK-- yes, let the good ol' free market take care of all of this... Yeah, it'll work JUST greaaat....
In February, the former PM announced he was going to hold a referendum on the proposed EU bailout reforms and austerity measures-- accept the bailout and shut the f up, or follow Iceland's example, default, drop out of the Euro and move on. All members of the conservatives, sorry, 'closet socialists', were dead against it, as were many in his own party (Your hammer-and-sickle socialists).
The next week, he was out of power, an interim gov't sworn in, austerity measures passed in the 'new' parliament, with the blessing of both the major parties, but WITHOUT PEOPLES' CONSENT....Yes, the 'new owners' of the enclosure (as Michael Hudson calls it) have fenced off the public land, the national parliament bended to the will of the financial interests, and damn them all... |
... and if they weren't Socialists they would abolish all taxes on income and property, institute a single consumption tax (VAT or sales tax) at 10% max. - abolishing all other taxes, abolish all entitlement programs, abrogate the public debt: default and forget it, prohibit government borrowing, and prohibit government defict spending (other than spending surpluses from previous budgets), sell off to pay debts or return to the people all government land and other assets ...
The Free Market is called the "free" market because it sets the people free - free from government abuse, free from Fascist-Socialist tyrrany, free from the special interests.
| thrylos wrote: |
| Long live all-powerful economics... |
Yes. The laws of economics, like the laws of physics, are beyond human creation or control. We cannot change them and have to learn to understand them and use that knowledge to make our lives better.
Socialists are stupid, uneducated people who have no clue as to the laws of economics, and usually are unfamiliar with other physical laws of science and try to pretend they are above them. Had they even a miniscule comprehension of the way the world works they could have avoided the worst of our problems, some of the worst come from the governments around the world imposing taxes on income and property which cause massive distortions in the market (one of the primary causes of health care insurance problems is the income tax), providing free roads and highways (the primary cause of air pollution, global warming, urban sprawl, resource waste, massive malinvestment in the wrong infrastructure, homelessness, long commutes etc.) and fascist-socialist health care programs (which drive up costs, reduce quality, restrict access and result in rationing and denial of care). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thrylos
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Let's just go back to hunter-gatherer societies, live in caves, beat others not our own with clubs, tithe those under us and barter.... Problem solved...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thrylos wrote: |
| Let's just go back to hunter-gatherer societies, live in caves, beat others not our own with clubs, and barter.... Problem solved... |
Unfortuately, that is exactly where socialism, if pursued without end, will take us.
All progress comes from the free market. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
