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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
[q. It just seems like if a teacher or parent even tries to exert discipline via any form of physical coercion, they could get sued or fired, and the kids know this, and act accordingly, which has repercussions throughout society. You witnessed in Korea an extreme example of CP/abuse, so I can see why you take the stance you do.
But, I've seen good male Korean teachers completely turn bad kids around. They didn't slap them around but they mentored them and lectured them, while at the same time, physical punishment was part of the consequences for bad behavior. That was only 5 years ago. Now, they'd have to baby talk them, suck up to the parents, and hope for the best. So, in truth I really don't know my stance here. |
So a Korean kid can sue his parents now? Please... 
And CP is alive and well in the other provinces apart from Gyeonggi-do. It is still in vogue at my school...come to school late and you're duck walking and doing jumping jacks.
Seoul is not the be-all and end all. |
The sentence you highlighted wasn't even specifically about Korea, so you can relax now.
And I'm going to have to return your eye-roll emoticon to you .... |
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Maserial
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Location: The Web
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| If corporal punishment worked, it wouldn't be such a moral embarrassment. |
So you're saying it doesn't work?
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| It doesn't work... |
OK so you're saying it doesn't work.
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| the fear of pain works to deter people from doing improper things that they might otherwise find convenient. |
Ah..so you've changed your mind: it actually does work?
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| Agreed...some sort of fear is required to keep people in check.: |
Ah. So now you agree that it does work.
Congratulations! thats the first time I've seen someone contradict themselves twice in the same breath. |
I think he's saying that as a motivational tool, fear can work without being attached to corporal punishment. (That's how I read it, at least.) |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote]I think he's saying that as a motivational tool, fear can work without being attached to corporal punishment. (That's how I read it, at least.)[quote]
But he didn't say just fear, he said 'the fear of pain deters people from doing improper things. '
Unless you interpret 'pain' as just psychological pain, (which he doesn't make clear at all) He's talking about CP |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Maserial wrote: |
| I think he's saying that as a motivational tool, fear can work without being attached to corporal punishment. (That's how I read it, at least.) |
Thank you.
I am glad to see someone read it that way.
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
But he didn't say just fear, he said 'the fear of pain deters people from doing improper things. '
Unless you interpret 'pain' as just psychological pain, (which he doesn't make clear at all) He's talking about CP |
Except that I already said that CP didn't work.
It logically follows that some other type of pain was being referred to.
I kept it brief as I thought it was obvious enough...but I can see that more information would have made it clearer for some.
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| We all know your skills in the English language far exceed anyone else's on this board but could you possibly dumb down enough to explain to the masses whether you think CP does work or not? |
Then again, had it been clearer, we all would have missed out on the brilliance of this award winning sarcastic wit. 
Such a shame that would have been. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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CP is like torture.
Scientific Study Touchy-Feely types claim it doesn't work. That's not true. It's just not the most reliable or effective means.
But that doesn't mean it's not ever effective. There are plenty of times where getting whipped has caused a child to cease a behavior and to realize its wrong. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
[q. It just seems like if a teacher or parent even tries to exert discipline via any form of physical coercion, they could get sued or fired, and the kids know this, and act accordingly, which has repercussions throughout society. You witnessed in Korea an extreme example of CP/abuse, so I can see why you take the stance you do.
But, I've seen good male Korean teachers completely turn bad kids around. They didn't slap them around but they mentored them and lectured them, while at the same time, physical punishment was part of the consequences for bad behavior. That was only 5 years ago. Now, they'd have to baby talk them, suck up to the parents, and hope for the best. So, in truth I really don't know my stance here. |
So a Korean kid can sue his parents now? Please...
And CP is alive and well in the other provinces apart from Gyeonggi-do. It is still in vogue at my school...come to school late and you're duck walking and doing jumping jacks.
Seoul is not the be-all and end all. |
The sentence you highlighted wasn't even specifically about Korea, so you can relax now.
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Since the very NEXT sentence after the one I highlighted DOES mention Korea and you go on to talk specifically about Korea it's quite obvious from the context.
Besides which you didn't answer my question. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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It's just not the most reliable or effective means.
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So what is the most reliable and effective means, why isn't it being used now and if it is, why is discipline in schools worse now than it was with CP? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If corporal punishment worked, it wouldn't be such a moral embarrassment.
It doesn't work...the fear of pain works to deter people from doing improper things that they might otherwise find convenient.
Agreed...some sort of fear is required to keep people in check.
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Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you saying only the fear of psychological pain works to deter people from misbehaving or are you saying the fear of all types of pain (physical and psychological) can deter people from misbehaving? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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It's just not the most reliable or effective means.
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So what is the most reliable and effective means, why isn't it being used now and if it is, why is discipline in schools worse now than it was with CP? |
You know they never really mention that in those op-ed pieces which decry corporal punishment/torture. I assume that means its something pretty nefarious, like threatening to kill one's family in the case of torture or turning a student's peers against them (possibly resulting in them beating the kid) in the case of corporal punishment or something of that ilk. Oh yeah, and positive examples and whatnot. Which works if you're good and inspirational. If you're just average, well...
Clearly CP is a tool and as a tool it has appropriate times and uses and is not a one-size-fits-all sort of thing.
People are hopelessly naive about the 10% of the population out there that doesn't give a crap about anything beyond your ability to intimidate them. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| People are hopelessly naive about the 10% of the population out there that doesn't give a crap about anything beyond your ability to intimidate them. |
True |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
[q. It just seems like if a teacher or parent even tries to exert discipline via any form of physical coercion, they could get sued or fired, and the kids know this, and act accordingly, which has repercussions throughout society. You witnessed in Korea an extreme example of CP/abuse, so I can see why you take the stance you do.
But, I've seen good male Korean teachers completely turn bad kids around. They didn't slap them around but they mentored them and lectured them, while at the same time, physical punishment was part of the consequences for bad behavior. That was only 5 years ago. Now, they'd have to baby talk them, suck up to the parents, and hope for the best. So, in truth I really don't know my stance here. |
So a Korean kid can sue his parents now? Please...
And CP is alive and well in the other provinces apart from Gyeonggi-do. It is still in vogue at my school...come to school late and you're duck walking and doing jumping jacks.
Seoul is not the be-all and end all. |
The sentence you highlighted wasn't even specifically about Korea, so you can relax now.
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Since the very NEXT sentence after the one I highlighted DOES mention Korea and you go on to talk specifically about Korea it's quite obvious from the context.
Besides which you didn't answer my question. |
Man oh man. Awesome. Here we go...
The "question" (which, with the added eye-roll emoticon) appeared to be sarcastic. I didn't think it needed an answer.
About context, no it's not "obvious" although it could be implied that I meant it specifically about Korea. However, it wasn't meant as such. Also, note my use of the word "seems" which indicates it wasn't meant to be a factual statement. It spoke to the general environment that teachers and parents were in, I wasn't citing any specific law.
Whew! Moving on...
(Had to be done) |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
If corporal punishment worked, it wouldn't be such a moral embarrassment.
It doesn't work...the fear of pain works to deter people from doing improper things that they might otherwise find convenient.
Agreed...some sort of fear is required to keep people in check.
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Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you saying only the fear of psychological pain works to deter people from misbehaving or are you saying the fear of all types of pain (physical and psychological) can deter people from misbehaving? |
I realize you are asking a loaded question, and I'm not sure I would like to get dragged into some current events type thread where no matter what someone says they are always wrong. Just the same, I would like to give you a clearer answer and yet somehow be able to limit the scope of just how wrong I will eventually become.
The fear of all types of pain can deter people from misbehaving.
The reason that I said that CP doesn't work, is that beating children/students reinforces the mistaken belief that physical violence is necessary to resolve conflict.
In the educational environment...this is a terrible message to be teaching children/students.
If this is indeed the message that some educators want children/students to learn and believe and use in the future...then for them, CP can be said to 'work'.
If this is not the intended message...then, in my opinion, it doesn't 'work'.
There are strong arguments for the various uses of CP, and personally I agree with some of them...but not for use in schools. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
If corporal punishment worked, it wouldn't be such a moral embarrassment.
It doesn't work...the fear of pain works to deter people from doing improper things that they might otherwise find convenient.
Agreed...some sort of fear is required to keep people in check.
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Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you saying only the fear of psychological pain works to deter people from misbehaving or are you saying the fear of all types of pain (physical and psychological) can deter people from misbehaving? |
I realize you are asking a loaded question, and I'm not sure I would like to get dragged into some current events type thread where no matter what someone says they are always wrong. Just the same, I would like to give you a clearer answer and yet somehow be able to limit the scope of just how wrong I will eventually become.
The fear of all types of pain can deter people from misbehaving.
The reason that I said that CP doesn't work, is that beating children/students reinforces the mistaken belief that physical violence is necessary to resolve conflict.
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Mistaken belief?
The only way black people were able to go to school in the South was a bunch of people with rifles escorting them. In fact much of the reason racism has toned down is that people are scared of pissing off big, strong black men and catching a whuppin, not because of any alturism. CP reinforces the idea that if you completely act a fool, you might get whipped and both your peers and other authorities will be deaf to your wailing and screaming. |
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Zulethe
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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I had this 6th grade punk in one of my classes and I was having a really bad day. He laughed at the wrong time and I picked him up and threw him across the room. It felt great and I immediately was treated with a new found respect from my co-teachers as well as from the V.P.
Of course I was given a tongue lashing in English that I wasn't allowed to "throw" the students.
In the west I would probably have been facing charges.
Am I proud of this? No!
Did it feel good and am I glad I did it? Hell yes.
I think these insolent little punks should get the living sh...beat out of them on a daily basis.
Just my old school two cents. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Zulethe wrote: |
I had this 6th grade punk in one of my classes and I was having a really bad day. He laughed at the wrong time and I picked him up and threw him across the room. It felt great and I immediately was treated with a new found respect from my co-teachers as well as from the V.P.
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And probably the students too.
That's how it works usually.
The rest of the staff wants to do the same half the time, they just know they can't these days. |
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