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Maneki Neko
Joined: 15 May 2009
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 Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Free trade is good, but you never really get a win-win situation. There will always be one side that has to compromise and loses out on things.
As for Mexico - I can't help but think that the maquiladoras were set up as a "booby prize", so to speak.
The biggest problem for Mexico, as someone has pointed out, is its drug trade and the power these drug lords have over its entire population. Has NAFTA contributed towards the drug trade? I don't think they have a direct hand in it. Indirectly, though, it is a different matter.
Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
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Spartacist
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Theories that free trade benefits both parties are exactly that - theories - and they are based on ridiculous assumptions that just don't apply in the real world. Ricardo's theory of competitive advantage, which is used in the USTIC CGE model for such free trade agreements, is based on a large number of assumptions including:
- economies are of equal size
- employment is always full
- there are just two inputs, capital and labour, which are perfectly malleable and never cross national borders
Needless to say, this model is heavily weighted in favour of liberalisation by imagining a world where trade cannot worsen unemployment and cannot cause capital flight, and is not subject to power or hegemony.
NAFTA destroyed agriculture in Mexico as the primary sector there, already worsened by the privatisation of ejido land held collectively by indigenous groups in order to join NAFTA. The Mexican farm industry couldn't compete with the heavily subsidised US industry and collapsed. Privatisations that accompanied NAFTA lead to an extraordinary concentration of wealth, but the benefits have yet to be seen for the greater bulk of the Mexican population. As the article the OP linked to shows, Mexican GDP was about 3.5% between 1960 and 1979 before neoliberalisation, but only 0.1% in the 1980s and 1.6% from 1992 - 2007, about the time of NAFTA.
Neoclassical economists love their models, but when you look at the actual empirical reality of trade liberalisation those models don't stack up and the facts show the models to be ideological constructions that they are. What this means for Korea and it's FTA ... well, you join the dots. |
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Jane
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| adzee1 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
Why don't you explain to me about countries like:
Singapore, Israel, Australia are being exploited by the EVIL American FTA.
The Original post said: "[b]any[/b] deals you strike with them" |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
Why don't you explain to me about countries like:
Singapore, Israel, Australia are being exploited by the EVIL American FTA.
The Original post said: "[b]any[/b] deals you strike with them" |
So its ok to exploit a whole load of countries as long as there are a few which are not being exploited? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| adzee1 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
I want one of you Leftists to meaningfully connect NAFTA to the drug war without leaving the term "neoliberalism" as a substitute for doing the hard work necessary. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
I want one of you Leftists to meaningfully connect NAFTA to the drug war without leaving the term "neoliberalism" as a substitute for doing the hard work necessary. |
Your request doesnt really make any sense if you would like to read it again ?
Or maybe you would like to read this ? if you can .....
http://www.stateofnature.org/naftaFifteenYearsOn.html |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| adzee1 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
I want one of you Leftists to meaningfully connect NAFTA to the drug war without leaving the term "neoliberalism" as a substitute for doing the hard work necessary. |
Your request doesnt really make any sense if you would like to read it again ?
Or maybe you would like to read this ? if you can .....
http://www.stateofnature.org/naftaFifteenYearsOn.html |
Oh, shock therapy. Is that derivative of the Shock Doctrine?
Please. |
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Spartacist
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I want one of you Leftists to meaningfully connect NAFTA to the drug war without leaving the term "neoliberalism" as a substitute for doing the hard work necessary. |
The article the OP uses says that the unemployment caused by NAFTA and the broader "opening of markets" in Mexico (see, I didn't use neoliberalism, happy?) lead to many seeking 'employment' in the drug trade. This leftist, while seeing NAFTA as bringing problems to the Mexican economy and seeing a salient lesson in that with regard to the Korus FTA, thinks the connection is a little dubious.
P.S. neoliberalism is as ideologically loaded a term as 'free market' (which isn't particularly free at all). If you don't understand what it means I suggest you read David Harvey's A Brief History of Neoliberalism or Dumenil and Levy's The Crisis of Neoliberalism. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| Still, I am of the opinion that anything you do with the USA, any deals you strike with them, no matter how much they say is to your benefit, it will always result in them exploiting you. |
You might want to ask China about that one. |
I just asked them and they said the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and give them a taste of their own medicine. |
Exploiting?? That's laughable. |
Do you really need someone to provide you with a list of ways the USA exploits Latin America through trade? and how beneficial the really successful " war on drugs" has been to Latin American countries?
If you do then that is laughable. |
I want one of you Leftists to meaningfully connect NAFTA to the drug war without leaving the term "neoliberalism" as a substitute for doing the hard work necessary. |
Your request doesnt really make any sense if you would like to read it again ?
Or maybe you would like to read this ? if you can .....
http://www.stateofnature.org/naftaFifteenYearsOn.html |
Oh, shock therapy. Is that derivative of the Shock Doctrine?
Please. |
No I meant that your request didnt really make any sense, and then I said read the article if you can, because judging by how poorly your question was worded, I wasnt sure if you have the ability to read a document so long. |
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FMPJ
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Maneki Neko wrote: |
| The biggest problem for Mexico, as someone has pointed out, is its drug trade and the power these drug lords have over its entire population. Has NAFTA contributed towards the drug trade? |
Partly, yes. NAFTA is behind the privatization of national utilities. Well, who had the money to bid on those utilities? the cartels. And that is a pretty hard problem to get out of. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| adzee1 wrote: |
| If the war on the cartels is won the activity will simply move to other countries such as Honduras, Guatemala etc.. Which is already happening as we speak, while there is demand there will always be someone willing to supply. |
There will always be demand for drugs, no matter what. The American prohibition and the current American war on drugs should have taught everyone that a) it can't be stopped, and b) the bulk of the problems come from the fact that the substance is illegal, not the substance itself.
In both cases an attempt is made to stop a voluntary trade in which no one's rights are violated. A victimless crime should not be a crime. Legalize the voluntary trade and consumption of all drugs.
If it matters, I have never taken an illegal drug even once, not even marijuana. I also rarely drink. |
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