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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
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So I take it that foreigners who take advantage of tax break laws their first two years here are moochers as well?
You do realize that one day you will be old as well. Now you may talk a big game now about how you won't take anything off the government dime or how you may not support free things (but will take advantage of them), but I'm guessing at some point phrases like "a lifetime of paying taxes, I should be seeing some benefits" and so on might work their way into things.
Look there is welfare abuse and the need for social security reform and perhaps going to discounted rather than free fare is a good idea, but whining and carrying on like it's all their fault and acting like a 500 won rate increase is some massive burden is just silly.
I'm guessing those NETs that are so concerned are ones which are worried about student loan debt. Debt that is often subsidized by the government and programs which were largely implemented when, you guessed it, the elderly were working and decided to do some nice things for younger people.
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| It's not like you're greatly exaggerating or anything. It's not like they all suffered through or did all of those things. It's not like they're the only people to have done those things, although you'd have us believe so. For pete's sake, who hasn't babysat? |
I'm pretty sure none of us grew up in a 3rd world country and were born into a civil war that divided the nation and left millions as refugees.
Anyone who was Korean and not wealthy born before 1955 was born into utter devastation and faced things like hunger and no electricity and invasion.
And it just so happens that every senior citizen was born before 1955.
Now did all of them contribute? Of course not. But for a bunch of people born into a modern first world lifestyle, many of whom came over here thanks to a generous government program, and are getting paid thanks to the economic development and sacrifice that took place by the people of that generation, to look at them and say "they are freeloaders" is just utterly arrogant and myopic. And THEN to do it all because of a 500 won increase on a single subway line? And all the while likely complaining about the rate increase while they took advantage of subsidized public education or government backed student-loan programs. I mean, good grief, have a sense of perspective.
500 won.
Fine, shake down the old people for 500 won.
One question- If the subway had initially cost 1500 won from the get go, before you even came to Korea, would you even notice or care? Would you raise such a stink?
500 won. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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From henceforth, I shall refer to you as "Red Herring".
Here are the facts:
the subway is running a deficit.
old people get to ride for free.
the population of Korea is aging rapidly.
These facts cannot be disputed.
Now, here is the logic.
IF the population is aging, and people above a certain age no longer have to contribute into the system, then the burden will forever increase on those still in the system.
You cannot argue with this statement, can you? Unless one of the facts changes, then this logic holds true.
The reason people are old, the reason the population is aging, the background of everyone involved does not matter. It is immaterial to the fact that the younger generation is being saddled with an ever increasing burden.
Sure, 500 won isn't that much - FOR YOU. But when you've got a family and kids and you budget everything, it adds up. You talk about the 88 man generation and how they have all these nice things - do you even know a true 88 man person? The ones that live at home and have government jobs are not part of that group. By and large, anyone you would meet through YOUR job and social group is probably not part of it.
Anyway Red, I've got to go. Time to ride the subway and subsidize the ever growing group of old folks. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:02 am Post subject: |
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I don't know why Steelrails is raising such an issue over this. It's not only the foreigners who are pissed about this. Plenty of Koreans didn't like this, which is why they didn't go ahead with this. I haven't ever seen a Korean go, "Yeah! I get contribute to society by paying more!" every time the fee increases.
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| Time to ride the subway and subsidize the ever growing group of old folks. |
Lol. It's funny because I have to take line 9 in a few minutes. |
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jdog2050
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: |
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I gotta say, the latest mass transit hike was a kick in the balls. That extra 100-150W really adds up after a day or two. I'm constantly feeding my transit card more money.
I think it's completely fair to charge seniors a reduced rate. Why is that insane? |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
From henceforth, I shall refer to you as "Red Herring".
Here are the facts:
the subway is running a deficit.
old people get to ride for free.
the population of Korea is aging rapidly.
These facts cannot be disputed.
Now, here is the logic.
IF the population is aging, and people above a certain age no longer have to contribute into the system, then the burden will forever increase on those still in the system.
You cannot argue with this statement, can you? Unless one of the facts changes, then this logic holds true. |
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OLD PEOPLE! FINE JUST TREAD ALL OVER THEM. I'M SURE ALL THE PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT THE FARE INCREASE ARE THE SAME ONES WHO TURN AROUND AND SMOKE ON THE SUBWAY.
lol |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:57 am Post subject: |
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I don't know where to begin with this mess of a so-called argument that is going on here.
We don't know why the privately owned section of the subway is losing money, assuming that it is. They just went into business a few months ago. They submitted their plans to the government and they knew what fees they were allowed to charge.
The fact that after only a few months they are suddenly losing money suggests that their business model was seriously in error and now they are crying for money for their problems. They made their bed and they need to live with it.
Blaming old people is just sad and narrow minded. This is the way the world works. One generation pays taxes to build infrastructure, pay for schools, fights wars, etcetera-etcetera and then they receive benefits after a lifetime of giving. But, a bunch of whiney, haven't done nothing youngsters want them to pay more, from my point of view, YOU PEOPLE are the greedy freeloaders, not seniors.
The company knows the rules and they want to change them to fit their wims and probably their waste.
Public transportation saves all sorts of unrealized costs. Think about how many roads would have to be built if there wasn't public transportation. Think of the polution and the health care costs that are being saved. Think of how much more business Korea gets because the roads aren't any more jammed than they already are.
The mistake was made by some investors that they thought they could profit where the government hasn't. Surprise-Surprise they can't. And, now they are begging cap in hand. Well, they took a risk and lost. I have no sympathy for them. Next time, let the government take on the risk and everyone would be a lot happier. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
. I don't even use the subway for some months and my tax dollars are going to subsidize you people in Seoul. Why should that happen?
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Except they aren't. Seoul is one the most if not THE most financially independent local jurisdictions in all of Korea. They source 90% or something of their finances on their own. It likely is the biggest source of national tax revenues. If anything, Seoul's subsidizing the rest of the country.
The money to build whatever in Busan probably came from the guy that works for Samsung in Seocho-dong. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Because that elderly population subsidized the young population from age 0-18.
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As parents, that was their RESPONSIBILITY. I have NO responsibility to subsidize Lee Gun Hee's free subway ride.
Whatever moron bureaucrat came up with the idea that everyone over 65 should get to ride for free should be fired for incompetence. It's bankrupting the transit authorities with losses running in the hundreds of BILLIONS of won/year and eventually government finances are going to collapse and we'll be living through another Argentina.
New Yorkers didn't suffer? They lived through a depression and built the US economy from the ground up. They might have fought in Korea and Vietnam or even Iraq. Yet they don't get to ride for free. Seniors in NY pay SOMETHING, even if 10%. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
I don't know where to begin with this mess of a so-called argument that is going on here.
We don't know why the privately owned section of the subway is losing money, assuming that it is. They just went into business a few months ago. They submitted their plans to the government and they knew what fees they were allowed to charge.
The fact that after only a few months they are suddenly losing money suggests that their business model was seriously in error and now they are crying for money for their problems. They made their bed and they need to live with it.
Blaming old people is just sad and narrow minded. This is the way the world works. One generation pays taxes to build infrastructure, pay for schools, fights wars, etcetera-etcetera and then they receive benefits after a lifetime of giving. But, a bunch of whiney, haven't done nothing youngsters want them to pay more, from my point of view, YOU PEOPLE are the greedy freeloaders, not seniors.
The company knows the rules and they want to change them to fit their wims and probably their waste.
Public transportation saves all sorts of unrealized costs. Think about how many roads would have to be built if there wasn't public transportation. Think of the polution and the health care costs that are being saved. Think of how much more business Korea gets because the roads aren't any more jammed than they already are.
The mistake was made by some investors that they thought they could profit where the government hasn't. Surprise-Surprise they can't. And, now they are begging cap in hand. Well, they took a risk and lost. I have no sympathy for them. Next time, let the government take on the risk and everyone would be a lot happier. |
They receive the benefit of seeing and enjoying what they have accomplished and what they have done for and given to others.
They've already been paid for their efforts. Why should they, or you on their behalf, ask for more? You're the whiner. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
So I take it that foreigners who take advantage of tax break laws their first two years here are moochers as well?
You do realize that one day you will be old as well. Now you may talk a big game now about how you won't take anything off the government dime or how you may not support free things (but will take advantage of them), but I'm guessing at some point phrases like "a lifetime of paying taxes, I should be seeing some benefits" and so on might work their way into things.
Look there is welfare abuse and the need for social security reform and perhaps going to discounted rather than free fare is a good idea, but whining and carrying on like it's all their fault and acting like a 500 won rate increase is some massive burden is just silly.
I'm guessing those NETs that are so concerned are ones which are worried about student loan debt. Debt that is often subsidized by the government and programs which were largely implemented when, you guessed it, the elderly were working and decided to do some nice things for younger people.
| Quote: |
| It's not like you're greatly exaggerating or anything. It's not like they all suffered through or did all of those things. It's not like they're the only people to have done those things, although you'd have us believe so. For pete's sake, who hasn't babysat? |
I'm pretty sure none of us grew up in a 3rd world country and were born into a civil war that divided the nation and left millions as refugees.
Anyone who was Korean and not wealthy born before 1955 was born into utter devastation and faced things like hunger and no electricity and invasion.
And it just so happens that every senior citizen was born before 1955.
Now did all of them contribute? Of course not. But for a bunch of people born into a modern first world lifestyle, many of whom came over here thanks to a generous government program, and are getting paid thanks to the economic development and sacrifice that took place by the people of that generation, to look at them and say "they are freeloaders" is just utterly arrogant and myopic. And THEN to do it all because of a 500 won increase on a single subway line? And all the while likely complaining about the rate increase while they took advantage of subsidized public education or government backed student-loan programs. I mean, good grief, have a sense of perspective.
500 won.
Fine, shake down the old people for 500 won.
One question- If the subway had initially cost 1500 won from the get go, before you even came to Korea, would you even notice or care? Would you raise such a stink?
500 won. |
One day I will be old; that's pretty much the only true statement you've made. The other is just more drivel and half-truths. And when I'm old I expect to pay my way. I'm not working so I can mooch off of others when I retire.
You use incendiary phrases like "shake down old people" and then accuse others of having no perspective. You have either no sense, no shame or lack both. Self-respect and self-reliance are tow things you need to work very hard at. Good luck! |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Here is a grand solution.
Do it citywide like they do here in Daegu. Flat 1,200won fee regardless of going just one stop..or all the way across town. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Again, if the subway rate was always 1500 won would you have noticed or raise a stink?
Last edited by Steelrails on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Game. |
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IncognitoHFX2
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Yeah, darn freeloading seniors.
I mean, its not like they didn't grow up in extreme poverty and hunger, watched loved ones get blown up, sacrificed free time and money for the sake of their children and baby sat their grandkids instead of going out to eat. Those selfish freeloaders. |
They are indeed selfish. Their past doesn't justify their behaviour in the present.
In every other country on earth (as far as I know), if you give up your seat to an elderly person they'll at least show a modicum of appreciation. No, people don't give up their seats solely to be appreciated but it is the lubricant that makes the exchange a pleasant one and reminds young people that helping others is a pleasant experience.
It's not that way with adjumma. If you give them your seat, they'll squeeze right in, plop down and pretend you never existed. If you don't give them your seat, they'll berate you and give you a hard time even if you're travelling thirty stops and they're travelling five. One of my students told me that the adjumma would sometimes kick her out of the handicapped/elderly seats despite her being pregnant (over 60 > being pregnant apparently).
It's not just limited to the train though. Just yesterday I had one bat my hand down as I was handing cash to a cashier so she could squeeze in and pay first! It's unbelievable.
So no, don't help them and yes, they are freeloaders. The problem is that many are still thinking they're in the poorest country on earth and Confucianism telling them that age exempts the elderly from having manners. I don't wish them any ill will but Korea will be a better place in 20 years or so when they've mostly died off. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Again, if the subway rate was always 1500 won would you have noticed or raise a stink? |
Again, if a bullfrog had wings it wouldn't bump its bottom every time it hopped. |
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