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Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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1927
Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Does having lots more foreign students (mostly Chinese) actually improve the quality of education of Koreans, or benefit the country in significant ways? I doubt it. |
I agree. I did not say it improved the quality of education, but it is a factor when universities are ranked. This is what many universities focus on - not just in Korea, I might add.
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ESL teachers represent a tiny proportion of foreigners in Korea, who are themselves a small proportion of the Korean population. |
True! The current population of foreigners in South Korea is approximately 2% - hardly a horde of barbarians. Regardless, they are an important part of Korea's future.
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| I wonder what people mean when they say Korea 'must embrace multiculturalism'? |
I guess this is the question, really. IMO, it doesn't mean that Koreans themselves have to change - traditions, values, language etc are all essential parts of any cultural identity. However social infrastructures may need to adapt to the extent that foreign workers and individuals who have either married a Korean or become a nationalized citizen can function in their daily lives without being ostracized by the greater society. As it stands, this is not necessarily the case. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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What are you going to do about it? Nothing.
Koreans are sadly justified in their behavior because they're allowed to get away with it. There's no penalty.
�Westerners will still bend over to buy Korean electronics goods and cars at the expense of their own people and nations, regardless of the fact that Koreans engage in protectionism, blocking out foreign products to a large degree.
�Korean people will continue to benefit from decent acceptance in Western countries - being treated as equal citizens, regardless of of the fact that foreigners in Korea do not have the same rights in Korea.
Why stop now?
Koreans are allowed to milk the system(s) and they do. They're enjoying their free lunch and they're going to go on enjoying it, because nobody cares about you, slaves (me included).
It's simple. The elite of America and other powerful families in Europe and even China (not Korea afaik) run this world. They don't care about you. Koreans care for their own people partly out of some victim complex because they don't really have an elite. They don't run the world. There are some Koreans in token positions in powerful organizations but they don't run anything. Samsung are not powerful. You are not powerful.
You (and I, and big Korean corporations and leaders) have the same victim complex. The difference is that Korean people know this. Most of you do not.
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Some 86 percent of Koreans also said having Korean ancestors was important for the nation�s identity, attaching greater importance to �racial homogeneity� than Japan�s 72.2 percent, the United States� 55.2 percent and Sweden�s 30 percent. |
Elitism aside, Sweden is spectacularly more advanced at the "commoner" level, than any of the above "nations" listed. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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If you're going to invite someone into your home (i.e. what 1927 posted) then you have an obligation to treat them properly. That's just damn near universally accepted manners. My house is your house, mi casa es su casa (forgive my terrible spanish), heck even in Korean there's a similar phrase, something like- 당신의 집처럼 쉬세요 (make yourself at home).
Multiculturalism isn't a choice; it's a result. You can have harmonious multiculturalism or have it wrought with strife- that's the choice you have after inviting foreigners. There's more than one way to achieve the former, but pretending like you can just choose to not be multicultural is naive unless you plan to kick 'em all out.
Other countries have shown benefits from immigration, including Korean immigration. The US is a great place to start- these days there are quite a few Korean Americans in prestigious government positions and Koreans are numerous in our excellent university system as professors, researchers, and students. They're also breaking through in entertainment (comedy, acting) and sports.
There's no reason Korea can't aspire to similar results. As for the concerns about benefits for foreigners and the they-took-our-jobs sentiment... well, you get the same whiny, racist crap in the US immigration debate. In the Korean context though, correct me if I'm wrong, all families are eligible for childcare benefits, correct? At least for young children, the gov't subsidizes pre school and Korean kindergarten. Furthermore, while there are certainly poor Koreans who could use a little more help, most migrant workers and marriage migrants seem to be near the bottom of the socioeconomic scale, so it's pretty natural that those who need the most help will get more than middle class joes. Also, similar to the US situation with Hispanic migrants, one could point to the economic boons they provide to industry (farming and restaurants back home, construction and manufacturing here) and argue that they contribute value to Korean society even though they receive shockingly low wages. Koreans could demand that some agreeable minimum wage be established or that the gov't should assist the tragically underpaid migrant workers. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| Multiculturalism isn't a choice; it's a result. You can have harmonious multiculturalism or have it wrought with strife- that's the choice you have after inviting foreigners. There's more than one way to achieve the former, but pretending like you can just choose to not be multicultural is naive unless you plan to kick 'em all out. |
That's not how they operate at all. You seem to be confused. They just patiently Darwin them out. There's no real social welfare programs in Korea. It's Darwinian in many ways, so all they have to do is continue to discriminate against foreigners or mixed families (as they often do) and over generations, they are phased out.
Can't really blame them. The elites of the world are slowly phasing all of us peasants (Koreans included) out. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweden is spectacularly more advanced at the "commoner" level |
Sweden seems to suffer from a collective ethno-masochism which may very well make ethnic Swedes a minority in the land of their ancestors quite shortly, and yet you think this 'advanced.' |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| There's more than one way to achieve the former, but pretending like you can just choose to not be multicultural is naive unless you plan to kick 'em all out. |
You can choose not to be 'multicultural' by strictly limiting immigration and citizenship, and thus keeping the foreign population to a minimum, and by strongly encouraging those who do settle here to assimilate.
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| Other countries have shown benefits from immigration |
As well as negatives, those these are often ignored. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| There's more than one way to achieve the former, but pretending like you can just choose to not be multicultural is naive unless you plan to kick 'em all out. |
You can choose not to be 'multicultural' by strictly limiting immigration and citizenship, and thus keeping the foreign population to a minimum, and by strongly encouraging those who do settle here to assimilate. |
And uh, where has that ever happened? I guess in Saudi Arabia or Iran where South Asians have no voice and are hidden. Great model to look to.
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| Other countries have shown benefits from immigration |
As well as negatives, those these are often ignored.[/quote]
Positives generally seem to outweigh the negatives. Japan has a history of trying to limit immigration and they're looking at a hell of a population crisis and domestic stagnation, though for now they seem to be doing alright. Generally, the most successful, wealthy countries in the world- the US, Canada, UK, Germany, France, Australia, Sweden, etc.- have become multicultural, and rather successfully so. In those countries it's just a small fringe element that complains about the coming end of civilization due to <insert migrant group> while the rest of the country generally gets along without too much trouble these days, too busy making money and living decently happy lives to waste time on xenophobia and racism. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| And uh, where has that ever happened? I guess in Saudi Arabia or Iran where South Asians have no voice and are hidden |
Korea, Japan, and Finland to name but a few. Not exactly horrible, despotic theocracies.
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| Generally, the most successful, wealthy countries in the world- the US, Canada, UK, Germany, France, Australia, Sweden, etc.- have become multicultural, and rather successfully so |
These countries, at least the European ones, were already rich, developed, and successful, before they decided to get 'multicultural.' Their wealth and success has little to do with multiculturalism.
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| those countries it's just a small fringe element that complains about the coming end of civilization |
Nice strawman. In fact, I would suggest that it is a majority of those nations' citizens who are deeply worried about the rapid demographic transformations that have swept their countries. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| And uh, where has that ever happened? I guess in Saudi Arabia or Iran where South Asians have no voice and are hidden |
Korea, Japan, and Finland to name but a few. Not exactly horrible, despotic theocracies.
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| Generally, the most successful, wealthy countries in the world- the US, Canada, UK, Germany, France, Australia, Sweden, etc.- have become multicultural, and rather successfully so |
These countries, at least the European ones, were already rich, developed, and successful, before they decided to get 'multicultural.' Their wealth and success has little to do with multiculturalism.
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| those countries it's just a small fringe element that complains about the coming end of civilization |
Nice strawman. In fact, I would suggest that it is a majority of those nations' citizens who are deeply worried about the rapid demographic transformations that have swept their countries. |
Finland has something like 10% non-Finns. It's more diverse than several individual states in the US. It's also a tiny country, which is naturally going to have less immigration.
America and some of those European powers became quite rich in part to cruelly exploiting non-whites domestically or abroad. That was morally unjustifiable, and eventually change was effected. Since then respective economies grew and society developed at an extremely quick pace. Britain, Germany, and France were in pretty bad shape after WWII, but they recovered in tandem with adopting multiculturalism. The US boomed in the post war years in tandem with multiculturalism, and boomed before that with large-scale immigration. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Finland has something like 10% non-Finns |
Most of whom are highly-assimilated ethnic Swedes.
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| America and some of those European powers became quite rich in part to cruelly exploiting non-whites domestically or abroad |
So neverending third-world immigration is payback?
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| Britain, Germany, and France were in pretty bad shape after WWII, but they recovered in tandem with adopting multiculturalism |
Actually, multiculturalism, as an ideology, was formulated in the 1960s, and only started to gain ground in the 1970s and 1980s. Moreover, Japan, which certainly did not encourage immigration, became the 2nd biggest economy in the world, which would seem to suggest that large-scale immigration is not necessary for recovery. Ditto Korea.
Korea should learn from Europe's immigration mistakes - keep immigration to a minimum; advocate integration and assimilation, not multiculturalism; and favor immigrants who are likely to have an easier time integrating. |
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IanChops
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Location: Pyeongchon, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchifart wrote: |
I have to say, I'm kind of getting a little sick of foreigners lecturing Koreans about how they should form their own society. It's completely up to them. Their country should develop according to democratic consensus, and not in a way that fits our agendas as ex pats.
Of course, no objection to whining about more particular issues (let's face it, there are a lot of them) but in terms of the broad direction their country should be going, really it's absolutely none of our business. We are not part of this demos. |
Lol! Did you do this on purpose? |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah Korea should definitely avoid the wealth, high quality of life, greater freedoms, similar or lower murder rates, lower suicide rates, and cultural vibrancy of Europe. Don't wanna make those mistakes. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah Korea should definitely avoid the wealth, high quality of life, greater freedoms, similar or lower murder rates, lower suicide rates, and cultural vibrancy of Europe |
What a nonsensical response. I suppose Korea could become 'more vibrant' by encouraging immigration and multiculturalism, but what are your arguments that multiculturalism would lead to greater wealth, quality of life, and more freedoms, let alone reduce murder and suicide rates? Comical stuff. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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More foriegners are living here. It's inevitable that there will be the need for acceptance of foriegners here. I've felt mild xenophobia around, especially during my first couple of years here. Not so much nowadays. But Koreans need to help people integrate if there are going to be foriegners that live here. Otherwise, there are future gang members and criminals. Make sure the minority kids aren't mistreated in schools when they are growing up.
But, that said, people who live here for years ought to be able to speak Korean, tolerate spicy foods, and have at least some understanding of Korean behaviours if not entirely acting by them. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are going to like this
http://www.mt.co.kr/view/mtview.php?type=1&no=2012041718201596859&outlink=1
It's about the plight of "multicultural" kids who are picked on in school. What's worse is that some Korean parents tell their kids not to play with the foreign kids or demand the school that their kids be placed in a different class away from the foreigners. |
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