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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| highstreet wrote: |
| Do Koreans even care about the increase? I've never heard any of my friends complaining about it. They just complain about work |
It's only one line. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| highstreet wrote: |
| Do Koreans even care about the increase? I've never heard any of my friends complaining about it. They just complain about work |
Well, the CCEJ and the city government cares. I'm guessing most people who use that line to go to work care. That's some Koreans who care. |
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sojusucks
Joined: 31 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Some of you don't understand economics and finance.
If you don't understand that revenue sources need to be increased to cover any budget deficits
then you flunked economics. Limiting or eliminating free rides is exactly where they should start when covering a budget deficit.
If you think a 50% increase in prices is small then you flunked finance. It's not just "500 won"- it's 50% more each time you ride the subway and odds are you are ride the subway all of the time.
That 50% increase adds up. Is it still cheaper to ride the subway than own a car?
Yes, but there are plenty of younger people who are unemployed or barely getting by and any price increase affects them, too. Remember, the free rides are not based on income- they're based solely on age.Wealthy older people can ride for free while poorer younger people have to pay the full price. You call that fair? |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sojusucks wrote: |
Some of you don't understand economics and finance.
If you don't understand that revenue sources need to be increased to cover any budget deficits
then you flunked economics. Limiting or eliminating free rides is exactly where they should start when covering a budget deficit.
If you think a 50% increase in prices is small then you flunked finance. It's not just "500 won"- it's 50% more each time you ride the subway and odds are you are ride the subway all of the time.
That 50% increase adds up. Is it still cheaper to ride the subway than own a car?
Yes, but there are plenty of younger people who are unemployed or barely getting by and any price increase affects them, too. Remember, the free rides are not based on income- they're based solely on age.Wealthy older people can ride for free while poorer younger people have to pay the full price. You call that fair? |
That's exactly my point. The free rides for old people thing is like the government telling Asiana or Korean Air, which are private enterprises (much like Metro9 Inc.), that they have to let people over 65 fly for free because the government built the airports. And although less zero-sum than air travel, subways are partially zero-sum too.
I'm of the camp that believes ALL welfare should be means-tested.
If the fare increase goes through, I'll be getting a car. End of story. The fare goes to 1,550 then if you transfer they tack on 200 won and with one transfer the fare goes to 1,750. You could drive from Mokdong to Gwanghwamun for that money, and you don't have to deal with walking outside in the rain, the rude adjumma, or some 20 year old pushing way more people into the train than the train can accommodate (& WAY more than is safe), instead of throwing people off the trains and making them wait for the next one.
I'm afraid of what's going to happen if Line 2 derails during rush hour. Or if someone sets fire to it like they did at Daegu some time ago. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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So wait, an increase of about 22,000 won/month, for a total rate that will cost you about 70,000 a month (assuming you regularly use that line to go to work), will cause you to go out and buy a car which will cost you probably that in gas alone, plus insurance, plus maintenance, plus the cost of the car? That sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Wouldn't the sensible thing be to take the bus instead? Would the bus be cheaper than the subway? I think making a financial decision like this to stand on principle might cause more financial distress than it solves, and this kind of decision making could perhaps lead someone into a situation where a rate increase of this nature becomes a significant burden.
| Quote: |
Some of you don't understand economics and finance.
If you don't understand that revenue sources need to be increased to cover any budget deficits
then you flunked economics. Limiting or eliminating free rides is exactly where they should start when covering a budget deficit. |
Oh I agree, that that is one way they could do it, however decisions like this don't exist in a vacuum. Limiting free rides might cause fewer people to use the stations, meaning reduced income for vendors. If those vendors close up shop, a significant source of revenue is lost. There also exists the marketing consequences and the political fallout that might ensue from a decision like this.
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| Wealthy older people can ride for free while poorer younger people have to pay the full price. You call that fair? |
Is it fair that most of those older people had a relative that was killed in a war? Is it fair that they were born into a 3rd world war-torn country without things like electricity and clean water? Is it fair that when they were young there was no mass subway system and they had to walk? Is it fair that they worked 16 hours a day to bring home the bacon and build up their family while that young person spends 16 hours a day playing Starcraft, diddles around on their smartphone, goes out clubbing and drinking, has never known hunger, and actually has a subway?
You want to talk about fair? Would you rather be born into an average home in 1940 Korea or 1990 Korea? Who do you think had the tougher crack at life? Who do you think life has been more 'unfair' to?
But the old people some slack. Pony up your dough. And remember, one day you will be old and probably getting by thanks to the kindness and charity of others. Unless you think you'll be perfectly self-sufficient and disease free because you say so. |
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sojusucks
Joined: 31 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails,you're being far too overdramatic about this. I mean, is it fair that us Americans don't get free rides because of all of the assistance we've provided Korea over the past 60+ years? Get a grip. Besides, Korea hasn't been a "poor" country for decades. Not all of these older people were around during the war. Think about it.
It's a business decision and everyone should sacrifice in some way. Besides, good business dictates that you take care of your paying customers, first. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
So wait, an increase of about 22,000 won/month, for a total rate that will cost you about 70,000 a month (assuming you regularly use that line to go to work), will cause you to go out and buy a car which will cost you probably that in gas alone, plus insurance, plus maintenance, plus the cost of the car? That sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Not having to deal with the pushy, entitled adjumma, not being placed in serious danger of life and limb by having way too many people on board (I don't even want to think about the horrors that would ensue if the London subway bombing was on line 2 during rush hour, on board an overstuffed train, at Gangnam or Sadang station), not having to walk in the rain, and being able to go anywhere whenever I want are all worth money. They were all something I was willing to put up with at 900 won or even 1,050 won (marginally) but at 1,550 won plus (it starts at 500 won, and the next thing you know it's up another 500, then another 500)? No way.
Good business dictates you don't give away your product to 20% of your clientele, which will rise to 40-50% in a generation or two. Just in 3 years the number of people entering the workforce is expected to be less than the number leaving the workforce. That means lower tax revenues. Where is the government going to source the funds to make up the deficits in 10, 20 years?
The deficits run in the hundreds of BILLIONS a year. Most likely more than half comes from a significant portion of the clientele riding for free. Give me ONE good reason why retirees who have no need to go anywhere during rush hour should be encouraged to ride the subway in the way of free fares, other than the tired old "they lived through hard times, let them bankrupt the country" line. Everyone's times are the hardest. Get over it. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| As for taking the bus, line 9 covers a rather inconvenient route that would require some transfers, and I can think of only one bus that does Yeouido to Express Bus Terminal. Plus many of the Yeouido buses do a bunch of weird crap in Yeouido itself. Then there's western Seoul, Gagnam, plenty of traffic that would make going from say Balsan to Shin Nonhyeon quite a pain. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:12 am Post subject: |
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How did everyone manage before there was line 9?
| Quote: |
| Steelrails,you're being far too overdramatic about this |
Really? Not the people who are glowering at the elderly because they have to pay 500 won more a trip?
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| Not all of these older people were around during the war. Think about it. |
Let's see, a senior citizen is someone 65 years of age, yes?
Someone who is 65 was born in...1947
What year did the Korean War begin?
Yes, do think about it.
| Quote: |
| everyone should sacrifice in some way. |
Why not the elderly? I mean, they have high-paying jobs and all and are in tip-top phyiscal shape. They lived a life of leisure and luxury, while we are living a life of toil and suffering. Yes, they are the ones who should sacrifice.
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Not having to deal with the pushy, entitled adjumma, not being placed in serious danger of life and limb by having way too many people on board (I don't even want to think about the horrors that would ensue if the London subway bombing was on line 2 during rush hour, on board an overstuffed train, at Gangnam or Sadang station), not having to walk in the rain, and being able to go anywhere whenever I want are all worth money. They were all something I was willing to put up with at 900 won or even 1,050 won (marginally) but at 1,550 won plus (it starts at 500 won, and the next thing you know it's up another 500, then another 500)? No way.
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Fine have fun enjoying the orderly and safe traffic of Seoul, on its non-overcrwoded streets. Plus I'm sure you'll find plenty of cheap, affordable parking in close proximity to your location to keep you out of the rain. And you'll never have to drive around in cricles or wait 30 minutes in line to get a parking space. And as far as going wherever you want, whenever you want, thankfully Seoul is free of traffic jams that can cause delays of an hour or more and make you readjust your plans.
Every reason you gave is just going to transfer to an automotive one. Might want to look before you leap. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| How did everyone manage before there was line 9? |
Lines 2 and 7, and a buttload of transfers. Or take a few buses and a buttload of transfers.
And I've got to concur about driving. I'm blessed with a very fortunate work commute, no matter how I travel, as well as free parking at work, but parking is expensive, traffic is everywhere, and gas is 2000 won a liter right now. Throw in insurance and maintenance and you're not saving much. Get stuck in traffic and you'll wish you were on the bus or subway. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Steelrails,you're being far too overdramatic about this |
"Really? Not the people who are glowering at the elderly because they have to pay 500 won more a trip?"
REALLY! On this and every other thread you post on. |
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FloridaGator314
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:00 am Post subject: |
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500 won is an absolutely massive raise in the price of a subway ride. One of the best parts of Korea is how affordable the public transportation system is. 50% would be an absolutely catastrophic increase, especially for something that many use on average at least twice a day.
The recent increase from 900 won to 1050 is about a reasonable increase should be, and it's way too soon for any other increases to occur.
I get that Line 9 is a private company, but a drastic increase will only deter current customers. The sensible business decision is to charge seniors to ride. They're not going to lose any business by doing this since seniors are not their customers at the current moment. |
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