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grandpa
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: Can you be fired for not doing extra work? |
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At my Middle School (SMOE), the school is asking that I help out after school with some classes (for free). They say I don't have as much work as the other teachers, which may be the case, but I still meet the 22 hour a week of classes written in the contract.
If you refuse do more work, can you get fired? |
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The Sultan of Seoul
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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No.
I never was. The key is refusing in the most sucky up 'it will interfere with my ability to prepare my lessons for my beloved students in my standard classes' manner possible etc.
As posted in several other threads I never once at any of the three public schools I worked at -
1. Did English cafe
2. Did any hours over 22 per week even though I was asked.
3. Did that 'talk to them in your lunch break but we'll pretend it;s not teaching and not pay you extra for it' gig.
You will not be fired IME ONLY but you certainly will not be renewed. My view was 'meh easier year with things going my way and then get another job after is better than not getting things my way for several years.'
YMMV though and perhaps most people would say I had a bad attitude.... |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Can you be fired for not doing extra work? |
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| grandpa wrote: |
At my Middle School (SMOE), the school is asking that I help out after school with some classes (for free). They say I don't have as much work as the other teachers, which may be the case, but I still meet the 22 hour a week of classes written in the contract.
If you refuse do more work, can you get fired? |
Your school, itself, presuming that you're actually hired by SMOE, cannot fire you willy-nilly. They have to request that SMOE fire you and the principal must justify the request.
It does not matter how much less work, or even more work for that matter, you have than "the other teachers." The other teachers are Korean, on a different contract, and have different responsibilities and contractual stipulations regarding teaching hours. Your contract states that your base pay will be for up to a certain number of teaching hours per week.
Let me repeat that:
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| up to a certain number of hours per week. |
Your contract also states that any hours over a certain number will be considered overtime. Those extra hours are for classes you conduct during the regular working hours. Working after the regular 8 hours per day and working on Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays is your choice. But in any case, that's still overtime pay. It certainly is not free unless you leave your brain on a desert island and agree to do the work for free.
Politely suggest to the handler that she contact SMOE's rep for foreign teachers if she is unclear on your contract. This issue, in my experience, comes up when a teacher is newly assigned as the school "foreigner handler" and that handler assumes that your schedule will be just like hers. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Can you be fired for not doing extra work? |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| grandpa wrote: |
At my Middle School (SMOE), the school is asking that I help out after school with some classes (for free). They say I don't have as much work as the other teachers, which may be the case, but I still meet the 22 hour a week of classes written in the contract.
If you refuse do more work, can you get fired? |
Your school, itself, presuming that you're actually hired by SMOE, cannot fire you willy-nilly. They have to request that SMOE fire you and the principal must justify the request.
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Not exactly. If he has been there than less than six months then they can fire him without justification. "He just doesn't fit in here."
Bottom line if a school wants to get rid of you...they will one way or another.
The only difference is if you have been there more than six months in which case they must give you 30 days notice or one month's pay in lieu. Possibly ask your principal for some form of justification as well...in which case he can make up any excuse that he thinks will be acceptable to the higher-ups.
But I would concur that this is a battle worth fighting. OP I would politely decline OR ask for extra pay. As long as you are at the 22 limit for your other classes...you should get paid if you decide to take these extra classes on. Good luck and let us know how it goes. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Can you be fired for not doing extra work? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| grandpa wrote: |
At my Middle School (SMOE), the school is asking that I help out after school with some classes (for free). They say I don't have as much work as the other teachers, which may be the case, but I still meet the 22 hour a week of classes written in the contract.
If you refuse do more work, can you get fired? |
Your school, itself, presuming that you're actually hired by SMOE, cannot fire you willy-nilly. They have to request that SMOE fire you and the principal must justify the request.
. |
Not exactly. If he has been there than less than six months then they can fire him without justification. "He just doesn't fit in here."
Bottom line if a school wants to get rid of you...they will one way or another.
The only difference is if you have been there more than six months in which case they must give you 30 days notice or one month's pay in lieu. Possibly ask your principal for some form of justification as well...in which case he can make up any excuse that he thinks will be acceptable to the higher-ups. |
I've never heard of EPIK firing a teacher mid year. Maybe non renewing. Assume it's the same for SMOE. There's no reason to legally fire you without warnings and so long as you abide by the contract.
I will do some extra speaking during lunch hour and maybe use it to take some extra time off or leave earlies myself. I'm at 22 but can work out a special deal. Korean teachers have a different deal. They have job security, far better pensions, and longer vacations than you. If they want to meet these conditions for you, then sure, I'll do the extra work for free and for nothing in return. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Can you be fired for not doing extra work? |
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| grandpa wrote: |
At my Middle School (SMOE), the school is asking that I help out after school with some classes (for free). They say I don't have as much work as the other teachers, which may be the case, but I still meet the 22 hour a week of classes written in the contract.
If you refuse do more work, can you get fired? |
?? I thought you just said in your other thread that you work 28 hours a week.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=219788
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| They say I don't have as much work as the other teachers |
Other teachers? What other teachers? You have more than one teacher at your public school?
Anyway, I think your question about the after school class was answered in your other thread. |
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plchron
Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:18 am Post subject: |
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The deal is, your CT can't fire you, your vice principal can't fire you, your principal can't fire you. They can only request that you be fired by SMOE and they usually won't go that far because then they are 'causing problems' and airing their schools 'dirty laundry'.
Technically SMOE can fire you at a whim but:
1. It is over bureaucratized
2. there are a system of warning letters that get sent out before you are fired (this is for all employees under any MOE).
3. your school, or most likely your CT, is trying to take advantage of you.
Just say maybe a lot and leave whenever your 8 hrs. is up. They might and probably will treat you poorly, but at least you will have your pride and won't be getting taken advantage of. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| plchron wrote: |
Technically SMOE can fire you at a whim but:
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Technically they can't (it's illegal). In reality though they could make up something. That said, there are too many middle-men for it to usually happen for something frivolous which may eventually reflect badly on one of those middle-men.
The next time that they mention that other teachers are working more hours than you (by this I presume they are referring to Korean teachers, not other NETs) ask them if they would like to re-negotiate your contract to be more lin line with what your Korean colleagues have. For starters, you would like a similar holiday period. If it's only for a few extra hours, then it might be worth not having to desk warm while your Korean colleagues are on vacation. |
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plchron
Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Troglodyte
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:25 am Post subject:
plchron wrote:
Technically SMOE can fire you at a whim but:
Technically they can't (it's illegal). In reality though they could make up something. That said, there are too many middle-men for it to usually happen for something frivolous which may eventually reflect badly on one of those middle-men.
The next time that they mention that other teachers are working more hours than you (by this I presume they are referring to Korean teachers, not other NETs) ask them if they would like to re-negotiate your contract to be more lin line with what your Korean colleagues have. For starters, you would like a similar holiday period. If it's only for a few extra hours, then it might be worth not having to desk warm while your Korean colleagues are on vacation. |
Anyone that has been employed, for under six months, by their employer is still considered a probationary employee in the eyes of the Labor Standards Act and can be dismissed without any notice.
This happens at hagwons a lot, but does not happen at public schools. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Can you be fired for not doing extra work? |
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| grandpa wrote: |
| but I still meet the 22 hour a week of classes written in the contract. |
That can be creatively interpreted though.
How much is an hour? One 40- minute class? or 60 minutes of actual teaching time.
Are you counting break time? preparation time?
This is why a lot of Korean contracts are deliberately vague. better check where you stand before you make waves. |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I understand where you are coming from Op. I, on the other hand, take a completely different approach with my school. I say "yes" all the time. Sometimes i get paid extra, sometimes I don't. And these days, I don't even ask what the pay will be.
* This attitude has allowed me to reach max pay at my school.
* Has gotten me promoted (extra pay)
* Has gotten me fixed office hours (extra pay)
* Has me first in line for extra paying gigs
* glowing references will not be a problem (a huge bonus)
* managerial opportunities may lay in my future
I give free hours all the time. I'm early to work and I always stay a few minutes after. When given extra duties, I just smile and say "no problem." Then I make sure my work is done and well done, even if it sees me put it an extra 2, 3 or 20 hours of "free work" in any given month.
The trick is to view your job as your career. It's one piece of a bigger masterpiece you are building. If you want to have something to be proud of at the end of your career, take good care of it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| plchron wrote: |
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Troglodyte
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:25 am Post subject:
plchron wrote:
Technically SMOE can fire you at a whim but:
Technically they can't (it's illegal). In reality though they could make up something. That said, there are too many middle-men for it to usually happen for something frivolous which may eventually reflect badly on one of those middle-men.
The next time that they mention that other teachers are working more hours than you (by this I presume they are referring to Korean teachers, not other NETs) ask them if they would like to re-negotiate your contract to be more lin line with what your Korean colleagues have. For starters, you would like a similar holiday period. If it's only for a few extra hours, then it might be worth not having to desk warm while your Korean colleagues are on vacation. |
Anyone that has been employed, for under six months, by their employer is still considered a probationary employee in the eyes of the Labor Standards Act and can be dismissed without any notice.
This happens at hagwons a lot, but does not happen at public schools. |
It does and has. However it is rare comparatively speaking. |
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alistaircandlin
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Why don't you ask if they'll pay you for it? Most of the teachers at my school - the regular Korean teachers, i mean - teach after school classes, and I do too, but we get paid extra for it. I wouldn't teach them for free. Korean teachers don't; why should you? |
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Joe Boxer
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Location: Bundang, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| plchron wrote: |
| Quote: |
Troglodyte
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:25 am Post subject:
plchron wrote:
Technically SMOE can fire you at a whim but:
Technically they can't (it's illegal). In reality though they could make up something. That said, there are too many middle-men for it to usually happen for something frivolous which may eventually reflect badly on one of those middle-men.
The next time that they mention that other teachers are working more hours than you (by this I presume they are referring to Korean teachers, not other NETs) ask them if they would like to re-negotiate your contract to be more lin line with what your Korean colleagues have. For starters, you would like a similar holiday period. If it's only for a few extra hours, then it might be worth not having to desk warm while your Korean colleagues are on vacation. |
Anyone that has been employed, for under six months, by their employer is still considered a probationary employee in the eyes of the Labor Standards Act and can be dismissed without any notice.
This happens at hagwons a lot, but does not happen at public schools. |
You can be dismissed without notice, BUT NOT WITHOUT JUST CAUSE.
The don't have to give you 30 days notice, but they MUST have just cause, or else they can be sued for wrongful dismissal. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plchron wrote: |
| Quote: |
Troglodyte
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:25 am Post subject:
plchron wrote:
Technically SMOE can fire you at a whim but:
Technically they can't (it's illegal). In reality though they could make up something. That said, there are too many middle-men for it to usually happen for something frivolous which may eventually reflect badly on one of those middle-men.
The next time that they mention that other teachers are working more hours than you (by this I presume they are referring to Korean teachers, not other NETs) ask them if they would like to re-negotiate your contract to be more lin line with what your Korean colleagues have. For starters, you would like a similar holiday period. If it's only for a few extra hours, then it might be worth not having to desk warm while your Korean colleagues are on vacation. |
Anyone that has been employed, for under six months, by their employer is still considered a probationary employee in the eyes of the Labor Standards Act and can be dismissed without any notice.
This happens at hagwons a lot, but does not happen at public schools. |
You can be dismissed without notice, BUT NOT WITHOUT JUST CAUSE.
The don't have to give you 30 days notice, but they MUST have just cause, or else they can be sued for wrongful dismissal. |
+1
Hogwon owners are the most notorious for using the 6 month probationary period to fire employees. Most do so wrongly because they don't have just cause. With hogwons though it's a bit easier for them to do it because the boss can make up some reason, and doesn't really have to justify it to anyone above him. He'll only have to justify it IF the employee reports him to the labor board. Even then, it can be tricky to prove what the actual motive for the firing was. That's why it's very useful for teachers who know they're about to be fired to report their boss for wrong doings BEFORE being fired. If he's already on file for doing something else illegal, labor and immi are more likely to favor the word of the employee.
With a PS, the person who likely wants to fire you doesn't have the power to do so and needs to pass it up the chain of command (usually up several rungs on the ladder). |
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