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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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mattingly=5 great years, 1 good year, several mediocre years at end of career=no HOF
sandy koufax=5 great years, 1 good year, several mediocres years at beginiing of career=HOF
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/koufasa01.shtml
and chipper might end up batting 299 for career, if he doesn't get hurt, gets 400 or so at bats and hits .230 like mantle did his last year. who knows?
he probably also leads all switch hitting 3 rd basemen all time in walks with bases loaded in late inning pressure situations. but it's baseball, not moneyballLOL
i think jones desrves to be in the HOF because he was one of the top ten
3rd baseman of all time AND had a few years where he was one of the best in the game. no doubt about it. not as good defense as brooks robinson, but better bat, not as good bat or defense as mike schmidt, but who is?
http://baseball.about.com/od/majorleaguehistory/tp/Top-10-Third-Basemen-In-Major-League-Baseball-History.htm
i think mattngly and dale murphy deserve to be in the hall because for half a decade they were THE dominant players in the game, just like koufax. the #'s they put up in the early to mid eighties can't be understood by comparing to todays offensive output or the juiced ball era of the late 80's early 90's. back then you had #5 starters with era's under 3. you had no name pitchers putting up era's in the low 2's with losing records.LOL they stood out almost(but not quite) like babe ruth did in his day. like pedro martinez did with montreal and boston when everyone was hitting 300 with power. he's not going to have the career #'s either. u telling me he doesn't deserve to go? if glavine and shmoltz make it in but pedro doesn't i'll boycott baseball/LOL glavine=phil niekro/don sutton/bert blylevin, long time good, NEVER the dominant guy in the game. u think the fact he was lefthanded should matter? pedro was like koufax. he's what baseball is all about. what every kid aspires to be. the best. not just pretty good for a long time. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| slothrop wrote: |
2 questions...
u guys think a 1st year player in the majors should be elligible for rookie of the year honors if he has already had a successful carrer in another country?
is ichiro a first ballot hall of famer?
i would say no to the 1st question, yes to the 2nd. just my opinion. |
It's interesting that you brought up that first question and then later in the thread, posters are talking about Chipper Jones. Chipper lost out to Nomo for ROY in 1995 and many thought it was quite unfair at the time.[/code] |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| slothrop wrote: |
2 questions...
u guys think a 1st year player in the majors should be elligible for rookie of the year honors if he has already had a successful carrer in another country?
is ichiro a first ballot hall of famer?
i would say no to the 1st question, yes to the 2nd. just my opinion. |
It's interesting that you brought up that first question and then later in the thread, posters are talking about Chipper Jones. Chipper lost out to Nomo for ROY in 1995 and many thought it was quite unfair at the time.[/code] |
As far as I see it, there are two arguments both flawed, for why one might say that NPB guys shouldn't qualify:
1) They are too old and experienced. The flaw: while some of the guys who come over are older (Sasaki), Darvish, Ichiro, and Nomo were all only a bit older than a lot of American rookies. Unless you want to put in place an age cutoff, this argument doesn't really work.
2) They have experience at too high of a level. The flaw: NPB is not the equal of the majors, and is probably closer to Triple-A than it is to MLB, particularly with its best players making the jump to the States.
I can definitely understand the sentiment of not wanting to give the award to a guy who succeeded in Japan, but there have been about as many failed transitions as successful ones, similar to anyone coming up from the minors, so I would say they deserve credit where credit is due. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| can a 32 year old american player with 10 years experience at the major league level win the ROY in japan? i really don't know the answer to this question. i think if a player is not considered a rookie at the highest level of competition in his own country, then he shouldn't be eligible for the award in the states. i mean, how is darvish a rookie? didn't he sign an 80 million dollar contract as a free agent? if he was a rookie he'd be making the major league minimum salary for 3 years, then arbitration eligable for 3 years, then hit free agency. he came in as free agent, so why not count his experience in japan?LOL |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| slothrop wrote: |
| can a 32 year old american player with 10 years experience at the major league level win the ROY in japan? i really don't know the answer to this question. i think if a player is not considered a rookie at the highest level of competition in his own country, then he shouldn't be eligible for the award in the states. i mean, how is darvish a rookie? didn't he sign an 80 million dollar contract as a free agent?o salary for 3 years, then arbitration eligable for 3 years, then hit free agency. he came in as free agent, so why not count his experience in japan?LOL |
First off, good question as to whether the Tuffy Rhodes of the world can win the NPB rookie award. This is Darvish's 25 year old season, and he hasn't faced a level of competition on par with MLB. For context, Ryan Howard was the same age when he broke in; should he also have been barred from receiving the ROY? While I think the success of guys like Ichiro and Darvish makes us forget it, there are a lot of guys who attempt to make the jump to MLB and fail. The NPB is not comparable to MLB.
As for being considered a rookie at the highest level of competition in a player's given home country, this would preclude many Latin players from receiving the award, as the often start on winter league teams prior to breaking into the majors.
Finally, Darvish got more money, but it's a bit inaccurate to say that rookies always make the minimum. Guys like Strasburg and Harper got major league deals for around $10 million, not including the huge bonuses they will get through arbitration, so it's not as if he's the only one making the big bucks from day one. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| slothrop wrote: |
| can a 32 year old american player with 10 years experience at the major league level win the ROY in japan? i really don't know the answer to this question. i think if a player is not considered a rookie at the highest level of competition in his own country, then he shouldn't be eligible for the award in the states. i mean, how is darvish a rookie? didn't he sign an 80 million dollar contract as a free agent?o salary for 3 years, then arbitration eligable for 3 years, then hit free agency. he came in as free agent, so why not count his experience in japan?LOL |
First off, good question as to whether the Tuffy Rhodes of the world can win the NPB rookie award. This is Darvish's 25 year old season, and he hasn't faced a level of competition on par with MLB. For context, Ryan Howard was the same age when he broke in; should he also have been barred from receiving the ROY? While I think the success of guys like Ichiro and Darvish makes us forget it, there are a lot of guys who attempt to make the jump to MLB and fail. The NPB is not comparable to MLB.
As for being considered a rookie at the highest level of competition in a player's given home country, this would preclude many Latin players from receiving the award, as the often start on winter league teams prior to breaking into the majors.
Finally, Darvish got more money, but it's a bit inaccurate to say that rookies always make the minimum. Guys like Strasburg and Harper got major league deals for around $10 million, not including the huge bonuses they will get through arbitration, so it's not as if he's the only one making the big bucks from day one. |
good point about latin american players.
i don't think strasburg and harper got major league "deals" , they just got huge signing bonuses, if their teams decided to spread it out over a few years, on top of their base salary, that doesn't mean they are elligible for arbitration before year 3. and they still have to wait 6 years till they can hit free agency. darvish was afree agent coming in, correct? i know teams have to bid for rights to talk to a player, but when the winning team can't come to terms, that player is a bonafide free agent the next year.
as for your point about other countries highest level of competition not being on par with MLB so they should be counted as rookies... would it follow that an american player who played at tripleA is not a rookie in japan because it is on par with their level? too confusing. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Harper and Strasburg (along with a lot of other high picks) got major league deals, but not in the sense that it propels them directly to the majors. It just means they have to be on the 40 man roster immediately and their option years start ticking away? Per ESPN:
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In a 2008 article, ESPN's Keith Law explained that "a typical minor league contract signed by an amateur player will fix his signing bonus and his salary for the first year of his minor league playing career." �A Major League deal, meanwhile, benefits the player by placing him on the 40-man roster and therefore making it easier to promote him to the Majors later. �The player also has the potential of seeing a domino effect on future salaries, as his salary cannot be less than 80 percent of his total compensation from the previous year. �For example, the Tigers' Rick Porcello is earning $1.536MM even though he is not arbitration eligible until after the season, and that lifts up all his future salaries.
The team loses roster flexibility with a Major League deal for a draft pick, though it gains the advantage of lowering the average annual value by spreading it over multiple years. �This advantage can be gained through two-sport deals without the sacrifice of a 40-man spot. �Callis notes that Bubba Starling and Archie Bradley will get this type of contract. �
Players have three or four years in which they can be optioned to the minors without clearing waivers, and with a Major League deal the first option is typically going to be used in the player's first year. �This sometimes accelerates a player's timetable and forces the team's hand. |
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/explaining-major-league-deals-for-draft-picks.html
I think you're right that Darvish would have been a free agent if they didn't come to terms.
My overall point on the level of competition is that we can't really establish a hard and fast rule about it, outside of the fact that there's MLB and then there's everything else. Kei Igawa succeeded in Japan and has proceeded to spend the last five years commuting to Scranton from the city because he was so awful at the major league level, while Darvish looks like he's well on his way to a successful career. I just think the guys who make the jump successfully should get credit where credit is due, as it's not an easy jump to make.
As I said earlier though, I can definitely understand the sentiment behind only allowing the truest of rookies to win the award, I just think its hard to find a cohesive argument to back up that sentiment. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: |
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you don't have to worry about the bad players, as they won't win it anyway.  i thought you of all people would be sympathetic, if chipper had won ROY it may have put him over the top for HOF. 
they can get all the credit they want by winning mvps, cy youngs and firemen of the year. it's just obvious to me. park chan ho was a rookie, drafted out of college. nomo wasn't. he had something like 100 wins in japan when he came over. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Not surprising. The Japanese are two time defending world champions in the sport. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Not surprising. The Japanese are two time defending world champions in the sport. |
WBC is kind of a joke. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| Not surprising. The Japanese are two time defending world champions in the sport. |
WBC is kind of a joke. |
It is the only series where the best from each country can play each other.
Japan has won both. Cuba and South Korea have finished second respectively. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| Not surprising. The Japanese are two time defending world champions in the sport. |
WBC is kind of a joke. |
It is the only series where the best from each country can play each other.
Japan has won both. Cuba and South Korea have finished second respectively. |
I think it's cool and I really enjoy watching it, but it's pretty meaningless. The US, Dominican, and Venezuela are unquestionably better than Korea, and the equal or better of Japan and Cuba. It's meaningless so long as its held in April and all the MLB players are on strict pitch counts, etc., and Cuba, Japan, and Korea start their getting ready before the MLB players and going all out. Moreover, the MLB roster was hardly a representation of the best American players in the game. Do you really think a sample of Japan's best is the equal of a sample of America's best? |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| Not surprising. The Japanese are two time defending world champions in the sport. |
WBC is kind of a joke. |
It is the only series where the best from each country can play each other.
Japan has won both. Cuba and South Korea have finished second respectively. |
I think it's cool and I really enjoy watching it, but it's pretty meaningless. The US, Dominican, and Venezuela are unquestionably better than Korea, and the equal or better of Japan and Cuba. It's meaningless so long as its held in April and all the MLB players are on strict pitch counts, etc., and Cuba, Japan, and Korea start their getting ready before the MLB players and going all out. Moreover, the MLB roster was hardly a representation of the best American players in the game. Do you really think a sample of Japan's best is the equal of a sample of America's best? |
no, but unquestioningly better than america's best tripleA players. |
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