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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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I don't think anyone is disputing that Itaewon has a lot of alcoholics, belligerent drunks, and prostitution. I believe the problem most people have is that the Korean news media portrays it as something unique in Korea and blames it on the foreigners.
Take Cheonho, for example. It has tons of bars, tons of belliegerent drunks, tons of fights involving both genders. It's the only place in the world where I've been assaulted, and it wasn't a foreigner who did it. It has as many bars as Itaewon and more prostitution. It's a cesspool. Police even stand around while men beat the living daylights out of women. But there's no way the Korean news media is ever going to do an expose' about Cheonho because the Korean news media tries to keep all of Korea's flaws a big secret or deflect the blame onto foreigners.
Cheonho isn't the only neighborhood like this. They're everywhere in Korea.
The only real difference between Itaewon and any other urban neighborhood in South Korea is there's a very huge mosque on the top of Hooker Hill in Itaewon. On Friday nights, foreign men and foreign women have to walk by Korean women and Korean trannies in Korean bars peddling Korean soju on their way up the hill to their mosque. And here they are, the foreigners, getting blamed for the neighborhood being full of drunks and whores. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Nismo wrote: |
| rchristo10 wrote: |
| Back on topic, are papers here held accountable for their mistakes? |
SK has draconian anti-defamation laws, so a more interesting question might be if an entire group of people can sue a news organization for a slanderous report that damages not only the image, but the potential livelihood of the foreign population. |
I was wondering about this. If a company sells me a bad product or something (or a school breaks the law), I can't legally disseminate that information, but the Korean media can negatively portray anyone that is not Korean and it's just fine and dandy? |
Again, is it only non-Koreans who are portrayed negatively?
| Quote: |
| Cheonho isn't the only neighborhood like this. They're everywhere in Korea. |
Are you sure there have never been stories on bad neighborhoods in Korea where Koreans live? |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Kepler wrote: |
| Nismo wrote: |
| rchristo10 wrote: |
| Back on topic, are papers here held accountable for their mistakes? |
SK has draconian anti-defamation laws, so a more interesting question might be if an entire group of people can sue a news organization for a slanderous report that damages not only the image, but the potential livelihood of the foreign population. |
A class action lawsuit was filed against Apple on behalf of thousands of Koreans who own ipads and iphones because of violation of privacy. So it is possible for an entire group to sue someone in Korea. Does anyone know of a good Korean lawyer? |
It's surprising that you'd take the legal route. I was thinking of whether there's been any efforts to make a foreign-run newspaper dedicated towards honest media coverage that could perhaps help protect people's image who are living here. I read in a book (Korean Bug...I think) a while back that there were many efforts to start foreign-run papers here, but it seems that the impetus sort of fell short with legal complications and the political situation in Seoul. These days it seems that the foreigners living here are just a great deal more apathetic. I'm thinking about trying to get such a thing running, but don't exactly have the resources for it YET, but wonder if it would even be worth it.
First, I don't want to further the social divide between Korean versus non-Korean by starting a foreign-only publication. But, I do doubt that writing about this problem in already biased publications would do much good.
Second, I want to have it written in Korean because otherwise there's no point. The people who need to read it only read in Korean, but as I said the resources aren't there. I really do wonder if I could find enough qualified writers.
Third, financial resources would end up making it one of those tabloid pick ups that you get at the subway station for free and would likely just be passed by.
But, my point is that I'd like to be more active here. I've been here for long enough to call it home and it's time to treat it as such, despite my skin color and ethnicity. I just feel like I may be going about it all wrong, despite my good intentions.
So, kind of want to know what other people feel about the media here and perhaps there are other ways or things I'm not considering.
**I also got inspiration from reading the book 세계가 사랑한 한국. It's a compilation of essays written in Korean by foreigners. I found their stories interesting, but I think there should have been more complex ideas, because we all have disagreements as you can even see from Dave's. I recommend anyone who can read Korean to take a look at it.
Last edited by rchristo10 on Tue May 22, 2012 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Again, is it only non-Koreans who are portrayed negatively? |
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| Cheonho isn't the only neighborhood like this. They're everywhere in Korea. |
Racism, xenophobia?
Last edited by rchristo10 on Tue May 22, 2012 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
m. But there's no way the Korean news media is ever going to do an expose' about Cheonho because the Korean news media tries to keep all of Korea's flaws a big secret or deflect the blame onto foreigners.
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Oh please! That is utter nonsense. Dave's is chock full of articles doing 'exposes' on Korea or Koreans (see the fake degrees story for one)
http://zeroempty000.blogspot.com/2006/02/country-of-liars-by-kim-dae-joong.html
Here's what the Justice Minister of Korea said himself.
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| National Intelligence Service director-designate Kim Seung-kyu, in a lecture he gave late in May when he was justice minister, said: "The three representative crimes of our country are perjury, libel and fraud." |
This is from The Chosun Ilbo... THE major Korean newspaper...at least according to the below link.
http://www.chosun.com/section/adinfo/english/howto_01.html |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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How's this, considering the possibility that the media isn't out to get you, that their portrayals don't have near the effect that we think, and the effect they do have is not the one we think they do.
If what you were saying was true, you'd show a Korean person a picture of a foreigner in Korea and they'd say "pedophile or HIV patient or violent drunk" But I'm guessing you'd get words like "teacher, phunny guy, handsome, happy, etc."
I think the best thing foreigners can do to make it home is to stop making foreigners the center of attention and existence in their world. The big issues should be issues that affect all people in Korea and Koreans especially. Korean issues should be the center of one's attention if this IS their home, not "its all about foreigners".
That's not to say don't make an issue out of something that's bad, for example Bonjit Hussein did something that was too long in coming, but taking up the foreign-centric mantle will only reinforce the "different" part of things. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
How's this, considering the possibility that the media isn't out to get you, that their portrayals don't have near the effect that we think, and the effect they do have is not the one we think they do.
If what you were saying was true, you'd show a Korean person a picture of a foreigner in Korea and they'd say "pedophile or HIV patient or violent drunk" But I'm guessing you'd get words like "teacher, phunny guy, handsome, happy, etc."
I think the best thing foreigners can do to make it home is to stop making foreigners the center of attention and existence in their world. The big issues should be issues that affect all people in Korea and Koreans especially. Korean issues should be the center of one's attention if this IS their home, not "its all about foreigners".
That's not to say don't make an issue out of something that's bad, for example Bonjit Hussein did something that was too long in coming, but taking up the foreign-centric mantle will only reinforce the "different" part of things. |
When I was taking the GREs a while back, I thought it silly. Who after four years of college would have a problem understanding simple algebra and reading passages? I kindly recant my thoughts. Who would have thought they'd turn out to be teachers no less? Add the education system to the media problem. 
Still, the media has some problems when it comes to their coverage of foreigners.
@Steelrails, AGAIN I like the way you think. It's not so illogical, but it's just too bad that you can't understand what you're commenting on...well maybe Case 3: It's in English (but I seriously doubt that too...since you haven't broached it with a proverbial finger). You keep discussing Itaewon, throwing cross-cultural/ country comparisons, and making some strange notions that somehow talking about foreigners is just like talking about everyone else...nope no xenophobia/ racism/ nationalism or anything else involved when you refer to people as "Foreigners" irrespective of their specific national, ethnicity, or race + a reason for why these identities would be important to mention.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think the best thing foreigners can do to make it home is to stop making foreigners the center of attention and existence in their world. |
Uh...we are a noticeable part of their home, because for many of us, their home is our home. But, well, I guess we should all go out buy some skin paint, line up for single lid surgery, and stick an expensive hanbok deep in the closet for those not so frequent occasions.
Using your analytic ways here:
Truth be told, if you think we can possibly go unnoticed, then I'd suggest you get your head out of the sand. Same crap happens in the US. Asians go to a great school (let's say UCLA), study their butts off, try just to be who they are, and someone decides to publish a youtube video based on one factor and one factor alone: their race. Nope, nothing wrong there? She should sign up for the national media company.
It's a problem in the US. And people in the US did and are doing what they can to solve it.
There's a similar problem here. People are not doing what they can do to solve it.
Clear?
Last edited by rchristo10 on Tue May 22, 2012 7:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Again, is it only non-Koreans who are portrayed negatively? |
Highlighting foreign individuals as foreigners (thus waegookin being repeated 20 times in one of the videos) is targeting foreigners specifically. I disagree with it in the Korean media just as much as I do when Fox News comes on with one of their "The Mexicans are coming!" stories.
Last edited by northway on Tue May 22, 2012 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Again, is it only non-Koreans who are portrayed negatively? |
Highlighting foreign individuals as foreigners (thus waegookin being repeated 20 times in one of the videos) is targeting foreigners specifically. I disagree with it in the Korean media just as uh as I do when Fox News comes on with one of their "The Mexicans are coming!" stories. |
+1 |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Uh...we are a noticeable part of their home, because for many of us, their home is our home. But, well, I guess we should all go out buy some skin paint, line up for single lid surgery, and stick an expensive hanbok deep in the closet for those not so frequent occasions.
Using your analytic ways here:
Truth be told, if you think we can possibly go unnoticed, then I'd suggest you get your head out of the sand. Same crap happens in the US. Asians go to a great school (let's say UCLA), study their butts off, try just to be who they are, and someone decides to publish a youtube video based on one factor and one factor alone: their race. Nope, nothing wrong there? She should sign up for the national media company.
It's a problem in the US. And people in the US did and are doing what they can to solve it.
There's a similar problem here. People are not doing what they can do to solve it.
Clear? |
Of course as an individual you are going to get noticed. But as part of a bloc or group to make foreigner problems the center or one's existence in Korea accomplishes nothing. It adds to the difference.
Also, demanding that the people here ascribe to what you believe in and that your imported values are the ones that should be ascribed to is ridiculous. Might as well just become a missionary.
But there is something off with moving to some random country, declaring it your home, then chastising the people for regarding you as different all the while making foreigner issues one's central focus.
How about instead of insisting on leading, you try supporting? How about working to preserve Korean heritage sites or recovering Korean art and such that's been stolen?
Now this is the difficulty in being a minority, the assimilation vs. diversity argument. You want diversity? Fine, but be prepared to be considered more of an outsider.
Look there's moving things in the right direction and there are times to raise a stink- blackface on K-TV for example. But a news report that says that Itaewon is a place that occasionally gets a little rough at nights and many of those people happen to be foreign? There are better battles.
It just reminds me of Asian people back home who'd go on and on about how the media and movies made them look bad and that's why they couldn't get a date. Please. Or Republicans and Democrats blaming the media for everything. The media is the media- it's a bought and paid entertainment operation that tries to run a profit and make shareholders rich. Believing it is some institute or principle is sheer naivety. And people are people. They can get influenced by news stories, but those tend to be shortlived as the next trend comes around (often pushing them in the opposite direction). |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Of course as an individual you are going to get noticed. But as part of a bloc or group to make foreigner problems the center or one's existence in Korea accomplishes nothing. It adds to the difference. |
CAN ANYONE DECIPHER THIS? Seriously? Are you a teacher here? I'm sorry, but: WHAT?
| Steelrails wrote: |
Also, demanding that the people here ascribe to what you believe in and that your imported values are the ones that should be ascribed to is ridiculous. Might as well just become a missionary. |
Wow, somehow I became the father of responsible journalism. Is your claim that responsible journalism doesn't exist here? Hmm...that's actually an interesting thought. Really. I'll mull that one over and ask a couple of Korean journalist, but my assumption (just an assumption) would be that they'd argue that Korea indeed does have rules to professional/ responsible reporting.
| Steelrails wrote: |
But there is something off with moving to some random country, declaring it your home, then chastising the people for regarding you as different all the while making foreigner issues one's central focus. |
Nice, make it personal. (BTW: though your life may float as whimsically as a warm fart, Korea was not a random country for me). Hmm..."making foreigner issues [my] central focus." Hmm...I'm foreign. I live here. Hmm...if foreigner = me; then, hmm...I'm making my issues my central focus. Hmm...
| Steelrails wrote: |
How about instead of insisting on leading, you try supporting? How about working to preserve Korean heritage sites or recovering Korean art and such that's been stolen? |
Well, if you think that responsible journalism is a foreign adoption, then I can see how you'd think my desire for it would somehow relate to Korean authenticity. I'm now apparently soiling the country's heritage sites and Korean art by tackling something that Koreans themselves don't want to handle. Energy best spent in the museum and promoting more kimchi factories. Maybe that's you're goal in life, and I respect it. Not for me though.
Hmm...I never claimed to be a social mover, but I wonder why M.L. King, Jr., Ghandi, and the rest didn't take that advice. Perhaps it's...hmmm...bad advice? (Gosh, I hope you're not a teacher. Do you teach your kids to be followers and slap the ones who try to be leaders? Gosh....what kinda sick idea is that?)
| Steelrails wrote: |
Now this is the difficulty in being a minority, the assimilation vs. diversity argument. You want diversity? Fine, but be prepared to be considered more of an outsider. |
Awww, you're definitely trying. Problem is that the above analogy would fit better in a situation where the majority is not homogenous. There's no assimilation option on the table for foreigners like myself here; I'm not ethnically Asian.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Look there's moving things in the right direction and there are times to raise a stink- blackface on K-TV for example. But a news report that says that Itaewon is a place that occasionally gets a little rough at nights and many of those people happen to be foreign? There are better battles. |
I don't know about you but in my view the subtle discrimination is worse than the blunt and in your face. Why? Because the former lasts a great deal longer. It warps people's thinking. It teaches kids that it's OK. And it sets up a world where even the thought of possibly being treated as an equal is impossible. To make it simple:
Slavery was bad, but there was nothing more damaging to a people than the Jim Crow Laws.
It's the subtle, not the blatant, discrimination practices that cut deepest.
If you're a minority in your original home, I'm sure you can understand that. If not, then who knows I could be feeding intelligence to a jellyfish.
(BTW: You contradicted yourself. At the beginning of this post you said that we outsiders should not try to force people to believe what we believe in. Then here you write "There's moving things in the right direction?" Well which is it, do we sit idle and dumb, or do we move things in the right direction? And, if it's the right direction, I'm willing to bet that direction is YOUR direction, no?) |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CAN ANYONE DECIPHER THIS? Seriously? Are you a teacher here? I'm sorry, but: WHAT? |
You are confusing standing out as an individual but to do things in a group aspect (bloc) only adds to things. Now there are things one can do in a group manner that do not add to that perception.
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| Is your claim that responsible journalism doesn't exist here? Hmm...that's actually an interesting thought. Really. I'll mull that one over and ask a couple of Korean journalist, but my assumption (just an assumption) would be that they'd argue that Korea indeed does have rules to professional/ responsible reporting. |
Yeah, don't break the law and get the paper sued. And if you do break the law, don't get caught. That and make sure we sell more copies than our rival paper.
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| Hmm...I never claimed to be a social mover, but I wonder why M.L. King, Jr., Ghandi |
Again, news reports over foreigners brawling in Itaewon might not be the battle you want to pick in your attempt to be the Ghandi of Korea.
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| (Gosh, I hope you're not a teacher. Do you teach your kids to be followers and slap the ones who try to be leaders? Gosh....what kinda sick idea is that? |
I teach my students English. It's their parent's or their 도덕 teacher's job to teach them morals and leadership. I'm not their to impart my social values on them. I am not a citizen of this nation, nor an instructor at a religious institution.
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| Well, if you think that responsible journalism is a foreign adoption, then I can see how you'd think my desire for it would somehow relate to Korean authenticity. I'm now apparently soiling the country's heritage sites and Korean art by tackling something that Koreans themselves don't want to handle. Energy best spent in the museum and promoting more kimchi factories. Maybe that's you're goal in life, and I respect it. Not for me though. |
How about working in something that provides support services to Koreans? They are after all, apparently, your fellow countrymen and women. If this is really your home and you consider yourself part of it, then they are the same as you.
On the other hand if you yourself are declaring yourself different and separate, then how can you be outraged at the Korean media treating you as separate and different?
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| There's no assimilation option on the table for foreigners like myself here; I'm not ethnically Asian. |
There was no assimilation option for the first Japanese person that stepped off the boat into America, but they made a go of it.
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I don't know about you but in my view the subtle discrimination is worse than the blunt and in your face. Why? Because the former lasts a great deal longer. It warps people's thinking. It teaches kids that it's OK. And it sets up a world where even the thought of possibly being treated as an equal is impossible. To make it simple:
Slavery was bad, but there was nothing more damaging to a people than the Jim Crow Laws.
It's the subtle, not the blatant, discrimination practices that cut deepest.
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What matters most is that you have equal opportunity under the law, especially in regards to economic equality. With economic equality comes the opportunity to gain power. You can have the greatest laws on the books, but without an enforcement mechanism, and money is a big part of that mechanism, its all meaningless.
I could give a crap what the media says about me. You want to get us greater equality? Enable our economic freedom in the way of privates. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Well, I do agree that Itaewon can be quite violent. I haven't seen violence when I was there except once, but I heard of so many incidents, and one of my friends was in a fight that involved foreigners. One Western guy was super aggressive with a Western girl, and someone pushed him and it escalated from there. However, in Korea, racism sells just like in America sex sells. Focusing on how non-Koreans can be inferior is unfortunately out there no matter how people may want to deny it. If we focused so much on negative things Asians did in North America, people would rightfully say the media was promoting racism. The Korean media does promote xenophobia, IMHO. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Well, I do agree that Itaewon can be quite violent. I haven't seen violence when I was there except once, but I heard of so many incidents, and one of my friends was in a fight that involved foreigners. One Western guy was super aggressive with a Western girl, and someone pushed him and it escalated from there. However, in Korea, racism sells just like in America sex sells. Focusing on how non-Koreans can be inferior is unfortunately out there no matter how people may want to deny it. If we focused so much on negative things Asians did in North America, people would rightfully say the media was promoting racism. The Korean media does promote xenophobia, IMHO. |
Thanks, Korean media does promote xenophobia and to be honest they do it in a brashly unethical way. (Why Steelrod keeps talking about Itaewon--he can't speak Korean and doesn't understand a word about the first case...unfortunately, Itaewon has nothing to do with the post...and he still hasn't really gotten that in his thick skull--a jellyfish, is a jellyfish, let it be...talking about economic equality as a resolution to the Jim Crow Laws...dat be da type of ignorant (blank) we should just keep in the US, if that's where it came from. I can here him already, "Women? Rape? Prejudice? What discrimination?? They have economic equality, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about!" Jellyfish...Jellyfish).
It's surprising just at what lengths mainstream media services will go at making any and every situation involving non-Koreans an issue specifically concerning their ethnicity, race, or nationality. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Well, I do agree that Itaewon can be quite violent. I haven't seen violence when I was there except once, but I heard of so many incidents, and one of my friends was in a fight that involved foreigners. One Western guy was super aggressive with a Western girl, and someone pushed him and it escalated from there. However, in Korea, racism sells just like in America sex sells. Focusing on how non-Koreans can be inferior is unfortunately out there no matter how people may want to deny it. If we focused so much on negative things Asians did in North America, people would rightfully say the media was promoting racism. The Korean media does promote xenophobia, IMHO. |
So you've seen one fight in Itaewon and that is enough to make a judgment on the place? As I've said many times before: yes, there are fights there, but in all my nights there, I can't say that there are any more than every other drinking/clubbing district I've ever been to, including those in Korea. I really think that the reputation of Itaewon as a violent place comes mostly from people who have never spent time in the nightlife district of a big city before. |
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