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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hey TUM, just like how you, I and everyone insinuates from the posts, I did the same.
When I posed such scenarios they weren't denied and the positions were defended that Ziimmerman was innocent (Kuros comes to closest in a post).
My alarm is the general and prevailing sentiment that Zimmerman is more likely not guilty of anything than he is guilty.
Just like the prevailing sentiment was that OJ and Robert Blake were guilty. They were both found innocent but a reasonable person looking at the case intially would deem them probably guilty unless given overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Much the same with Zimmerman. A person with a gun, who suspects someone of being a criminal follows him and that person ends up dead.
Intially, the average person would conclude Zimmerman is probably guilty of something and would change their minds if/when overwhelming evidence to the contrary comes out.
That does not seem the case on this thread by far too many people. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| If you feel someone is being racist that is what the Report post link is for. |
Whether or not it violates TOS, routinely claiming that minorities (blacks in particular) are predisposed to committing crime is clearly a pretty racist sentiment. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| routinely claiming that minorities (blacks in particular) are predisposed to committing crime is clearly a pretty racist sentiment. |
Please remind me, where did I state that blacks are 'predisposed' to committing crimes? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
My alarm is the general and prevailing sentiment that Zimmerman is more likely not guilty of anything than he is guilty.
Just like the prevailing sentiment was that OJ and Robert Blake were guilty. They were both found innocent but a reasonable person looking at the case intially would deem them probably guilty unless given overwhelming evidence to the contrary. |
It sounds as though you just don't like that most people disagree with you here. More importantly though, our justice system isn't supposed to convict someone who is "probably guilty", only people who are shown to be "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".
You're free to dislike this system of justice. And you're free to make points that back up your arguments. But it's hardly irrational for a "reasonable person" to see a reasonable doubt as to Zimmerman's guilt.
It's entirely possible that Zimmerman is guilty of a significant crime. However, without any evidence showing that Martin's killing was unjustified (and significant evidence showing that it likely was justified) "reasonable doubt" leads me to a not-guilty verdict. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
H.
Just like the prevailing sentiment was that OJ and Robert Blake were guilty. They were both found innocent but a reasonable person looking at the case intially would deem them probably guilty unless given overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Much the same with Zimmerman. A person with a gun, who suspects someone of being a criminal follows him and that person ends up dead.
Intially, the average person would conclude Zimmerman is probably guilty of something and would change their minds if/when overwhelming evidence to the contrary comes out.
That does not seem the case on this thread by far too many people. |
That is not the way the American justice system works. They are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact that's the case in much of the West...certainly in Canada as well. We are simply going by the procedure of our justice systems.
The "overwhelming evidence" has to be on the PROSECUTION'S SIDE not the DEFENDANT. It doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks. The prosecution has to prove the case. Why is it so hard to understand that?
Once again under American law (which Zimmerman is subject to) the defendant does not have to produce a single shred of proof that he is innocent. He is presumed to be innocent when the trial begins. Of course if he can, he should...but he doesn't have to prove a thing. That is the prosecution's job. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Hey TUM, just like how you, I and everyone insinuates from the posts, I did the same.
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The difference is we didn't insinuate that other people are racist or stupid for not agreeing with us. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/05/witnesses-trayvon-martin-case-arent-good-witnesses/52699/
4 eye witness have now changed their stories. I feel like as soon as we learn something in this case, it's changed or proven wrong in a matter of days.
Here's the changes according to the article.
"Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman," according to The Orlando Sentinel's Rene Stutzman and Jeff Weiner. "A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running."
The changing witness accounts are part of a bundle of evidence that the prosecution team released last week. Here's how the four witnesses accounts changed, per Stutzman and Weiner:
Witness 2 first said she saw two figures running about 10 feet apart and saw a fistfight. In her second interview she said: "I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. � I just know I saw a person out there."
Witness 12 first said she saw two people on the ground and wasn't sure who was on top. She changed that in her second interview, saying that "Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size."
Witness 6 first said he saw a black man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," and that Zimmerman was the one calling for help. He's since changed that saying that he's not sure who was crying out for help.
Witness 13 saw Zimmerman with blood on the back of his head that night, and that Zimmerman told him that Martin "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him" and to call his wife. He later added, that Zimmerman's demeanor was "not like 'I can't believe I just shot someone!' � it was more like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody�,' like it was nothing." |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Christ this case is a disaster. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Christ this case is a disaster. |
It's like a perfect storm of incompetence. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Christ this case is a disaster. |
It's like a perfect storm of incompetence. |
Again, this is why I think the cops screwed up by not performing an investigation, regardless of whether or not they were convinced Zimmerman was innocent of a crime. Moreover, this is what makes stand your ground laws problematic for people on both sides; assuming Zimmerman is innocent, proving that innocence is significantly more difficult due to the fact that there was not a thorough investigation at the time, and the recollections of whatever witnesses there are have certainly been tainted by media coverage. Perhaps this was unavoidable, but I can't help but think that had the police proceeded with an investigation immediately, many of the problems of the case might have been mitigated. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
My alarm is the general and prevailing sentiment that Zimmerman is more likely not guilty of anything than he is guilty.
Just like the prevailing sentiment was that OJ and Robert Blake were guilty. They were both found innocent but a reasonable person looking at the case intially would deem them probably guilty unless given overwhelming evidence to the contrary. |
It sounds as though you just don't like that most people disagree with you here. More importantly though, our justice system isn't supposed to convict someone who is "probably guilty", only people who are shown to be "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".
You're free to dislike this system of justice. And you're free to make points that back up your arguments. But it's hardly irrational for a "reasonable person" to see a reasonable doubt as to Zimmerman's guilt.
It's entirely possible that Zimmerman is guilty of a significant crime. However, without any evidence showing that Martin's killing was unjustified (and significant evidence showing that it likely was justified) "reasonable doubt" leads me to a not-guilty verdict. |
Plenty of posts/topics on this forum where I disagree with even majority so you are basing your opinion on one topic. Unless you know the totality of my posts elsewhere its presumative.
Second, obviously in the eyes of the law Zimmerman is innocent until proven otherwise. Also, its possible he is completely innocent.
We are discussing this topic not as jurors but as opinion based on the facts as we know them. I thought Robert Blake and OJ Simpson were both guilty of murder based on the information at hand. Most people concluded the same as well.
Same thinking being applied to this matter. The average person would conclude that a person with a gun, who suspects someone of being a criminal or a drug addict and the person he follows ends up dead would conclude the person is PROBABLE guilty initially unless overwhelming evidence came to the contrary and some of you are trying to sell the idea that its not so. Its highly suspicious. There are racial overtones to the case which could be a factor in people's thinking...on BOTH sides. I don't think some of Martin's staunchest supporters would entertain any idea that its possible Zimmerman could be completely innocent. Those same folks would accuse ME of racial bias for even suggesting that possibiiity. I don't tihink its likely but I think there is a possibility.
I actually think there is not enough to convict Zimmerman. Unless new evidence is found and it may be forthcoming, I think legally he may be innocent. However, I would still think he was probably guilty of a crime. Just like I think OJ was guilty of murder even though he was innocent in the eyes of the law. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Hey TUM, just like how you, I and everyone insinuates from the posts, I did the same.
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The difference is we didn't insinuate that other people are racist or stupid for not agreeing with us. |
Nor do I (think someone is racist or stupid if they don't agree with my pov), However I do insinuate racial bias to some (I don't assume any of your are stupid) when its a racially charged case and I see reason giving way to find the white guy innocent and over emphasis on trivial matters to a black defendend.
Also, I would say the same to some of Martin's supporters as well, who would dismiss Zimmerman's injuries as inconsequential. Were there posts stating that I would make the same insinuation. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| routinely claiming that minorities (blacks in particular) are predisposed to committing crime is clearly a pretty racist sentiment. |
Please remind me, where did I state that blacks are 'predisposed' to committing crimes? |
Sharpton hasn't said he hates white people and as a candiadte David Duke hasn't said he doesn't like black peope either.
At least you're careful enough not to state it blatantly. A bit cowardly though. Umpteen posts about blacks agaisnt whites or negative stats about blacks though speaks volumes.
Which remains, interesting you never address my view that violent crime is a function of poverty and is the one common denominator in every country and throughout history. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Which remains, interesting you never address my view that violent crime is a function of poverty and is the one common denominator in every country and throughout history. |
I actually did address your simplistic view that violent crime is a function of poverty in another thread. Clearly, there are more factors at work than poverty, the most important being the role of parents, which for many young blacks is distinctly lacking. |
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