| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
 Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
A passport is a privilege, you say?
Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
I guess some of you young American Republicans are too young to have known the Cold War. |
Yes a passport is a privilege
You have to pay to get one. And you have to meet certain criteria.
Everyone? So in theory a ten year old could just up and leave the country and the airport officials couldn't call the police and stop him?
Come now...we're all old enough to know the difference between some nice rhetoric and the reality.
The reality is that NO ONE has any RIGHT to ENTER another country that he or she is not a citizen of. Your entrance is permitted...it is not a RIGHT. |
Read it again, it says nothing about a right of entry. Only a right of freedom of movement WITHIN borders, and a right to leave and return the country of origin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
edit
Last edited by slothrop on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
A passport is a privilege, you say?
Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
I guess some of you young American Republicans are too young to have known the Cold War. |
Yes a passport is a privilege
You have to pay to get one. And you have to meet certain criteria.
Everyone? So in theory a ten year old could just up and leave the country and the airport officials couldn't call the police and stop him?
Come now...we're all old enough to know the difference between some nice rhetoric and the reality.
The reality is that NO ONE has any RIGHT to ENTER another country that he or she is not a citizen of. Your entrance is permitted...it is not a RIGHT. |
Read it again, it says nothing about a right of entry. Only a right of freedom of movement WITHIN borders, and a right to leave and return the country of origin. |
Yes that is exactly my point. I'm only approaching it from another angle. When you leave a country you must be/land in ANOTHER country by default (unless you have chartered a plane or boat to take you to some unclaimed island in the ocean somewhere.).
You have a right to leave...but that right to leave is contingent upon some other country accepting you...if no other countries wish to accept you...then that right is effectively nullified. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
It is really obscene to compare U.S passport regulqations with nazi Germany. It trivializes the holucaust and other nazi crimes. It truly is scary to read this sort of rhethoric from supposedly educated people. A lot scarier than the passport requirement being debated.
There are requirements to fufill before you can obtain a license to drive , is that a violation of human rights.
Can anyone write a definitiot"of a "human right" and explain exactly what it entails? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
edit
Last edited by slothrop on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
A passport is a privilege, you say?
Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
I guess some of you young American Republicans are too young to have known the Cold War. |
Yes a passport is a privilege
You have to pay to get one. And you have to meet certain criteria.
Everyone? So in theory a ten year old could just up and leave the country and the airport officials couldn't call the police and stop him?
Come now...we're all old enough to know the difference between some nice rhetoric and the reality.
The reality is that NO ONE has any RIGHT to ENTER another country that he or she is not a citizen of. Your entrance is permitted...it is not a RIGHT. |
A passport is not a privilege in countries which respect the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
The fees you pay for a passport is a tax. It covers the costs of producing the passport.
Of course you must meet a certain criteria in order to get a passport: citizenship. The burden of proof is on the applicant.
A child can fly alone with the permission of his or her parents or legal guardians.
Read again what I wrote: the right to enter and leave one's own country. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 12ax7 wrote: |
Of course you must meet a certain criteria in order to get a passport: citizenship. The burden of proof is on the applicant.
|
No citizenship is not the only criteria.
Here are some other factors
| Quote: |
Sec. 51.70 Denial of passports.
(a) A passport, except for direct return to the United States, shall
not be issued in any case in which the Secretary of State determines or
is informed by competent authority that:
(1) The applicant is the subject of an outstanding Federal warrant
of arrest for a felony, including a warrant issued under the Federal
Fugitive Felon Act (18 U.S.C. 1073); or
(2) The applicant is subject to a criminal court order, condition of
probation, or condition of parole, any of which forbids departure from
the United States and the violation of which could result in the
issuance of a Federal warrant of arrest, including a warrant issued
under the Federal Fugitive Felon Act; or
(3) The applicant is subject to a court order committing him or her
to a mental institution; or
(4) The applicant is the subject of a request for extradition or
provisional arrest for extradition which has been presented to the
government of a foreign country; or
(5) The applicant is the subject of a subpoena issued pursuant to
section 1783 of title 28, United States Code, in a matter involving
Federal prosecution for, or grand jury investigation of, a felony; or
(6) The applicant has not repaid a loan received from the United
States as prescribed under Sec. Sec. 71.10 and 71.11 of this chapter;
or
(7) The applicant is in default on a loan received from the United
States to effectuate his or her return from a foreign country in the course of
travel abroad; or
( The applicant has been certified by the Secretary of Health and
Human Services as notified by a State agency under 42 U.S.C. 652(k) to
be in arrears of child support in an amount exceeding $5,000.00. |
And yes you have the right to enter and leave your own country...however if NO OTHER COUNTRY WILL LET YOU IN, then that right has been nullified.
A passport is NOT a right. As I showed above citizenship is NOT the sole criteria applied to get it. You can be denied it for a whole host of reasons even if you are a citizen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
edit
Last edited by slothrop on Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
Of course you must meet a certain criteria in order to get a passport: citizenship. The burden of proof is on the applicant.
|
No citizenship is not the only criteria.
Here are some other factors
| Quote: |
Sec. 51.70 Denial of passports.
(a) A passport, except for direct return to the United States, shall
not be issued in any case in which the Secretary of State determines or
is informed by competent authority that:
(1) The applicant is the subject of an outstanding Federal warrant
of arrest for a felony, including a warrant issued under the Federal
Fugitive Felon Act (18 U.S.C. 1073); or
(2) The applicant is subject to a criminal court order, condition of
probation, or condition of parole, any of which forbids departure from
the United States and the violation of which could result in the
issuance of a Federal warrant of arrest, including a warrant issued
under the Federal Fugitive Felon Act; or
(3) The applicant is subject to a court order committing him or her
to a mental institution; or
(4) The applicant is the subject of a request for extradition or
provisional arrest for extradition which has been presented to the
government of a foreign country; or
(5) The applicant is the subject of a subpoena issued pursuant to
section 1783 of title 28, United States Code, in a matter involving
Federal prosecution for, or grand jury investigation of, a felony; or
(6) The applicant has not repaid a loan received from the United
States as prescribed under Sec. Sec. 71.10 and 71.11 of this chapter;
or
(7) The applicant is in default on a loan received from the United
States to effectuate his or her return from a foreign country in the course of
travel abroad; or
( The applicant has been certified by the Secretary of Health and
Human Services as notified by a State agency under 42 U.S.C. 652(k) to
be in arrears of child support in an amount exceeding $5,000.00. |
And yes you have the right to enter and leave your own country...however if NO OTHER COUNTRY WILL LET YOU IN, then that right has been nullified.
A passport is NOT a right. As I showed above citizenship is NOT the sole criteria applied to get it. You can be denied it for a whole host of reasons even if you are a citizen. |
Sure, you can't leave the country if you're in jail or could possibly end there. I didn't mention it because it's too obvious to bring up.
As for the rest of your argument...How would one's inability enter a foreign country negate one's right to leave or return to his or her own? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
edit
Last edited by slothrop on Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| How would one's inability enter a foreign country negate one's right to leave or return to his or her own? |
Well how can you leave your country if you cannot enter another country? Where will you go? To another dimension? 
As for returning to your own country...to return you had to leave and to leave you had to gain entrance to a foreign country and without a passport that is typically not possibly legally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How would one's inability enter a foreign country negate one's right to leave or return to his or her own? |
Well how can you leave your country if you cannot enter another country? Where will you go? To another dimension?
As for returning to your own country...to return you had to leave and to leave you had to gain entrance to a foreign country and without a passport that is typically not possibly legally. |
If one had to guarantee that one wouldn't be turned around by Immigration at one's destination before leaving, nobody would travel internationally.
And so, if one can be refused entry into a country, it should be clear that there is no need to gain entrance to another country before returning to one's own. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 12ax7 wrote: |
[q
Sure, you can't leave the country if you're in jail or could possibly end there. I didn't mention it because it's too obvious to bring up.
As for the rest of your argument...How would one's inability enter a foreign country negate one's right to leave or return to his or her own? |
You also can't leave the country if you own the government a certain sum of money OR own a certain amount in child support OR a subpoena (which does not necessarily mean you could be in jail or could possibly end up there. Witnesses who are reluctant to testify can be served with them too.)
I like how you conveniently skipped over those other factors though...nothing says winning an argument by simply ignoring proof that your argument is garbage.
As for one's inability to enter a foreign country...another poster has already answered that and quite well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How would one's inability enter a foreign country negate one's right to leave or return to his or her own? |
Well how can you leave your country if you cannot enter another country? Where will you go? To another dimension?
As for returning to your own country...to return you had to leave and to leave you had to gain entrance to a foreign country and without a passport that is typically not possibly legally. |
If one had to guarantee that one wouldn't be turned around by Immigration at one's destination before leaving, nobody would travel internationally.
And so, if one can be refused entry into a country, it should be clear that there is no need to gain entrance to another country before returning to one's own. |
Oh but there is.
The SECOND the plane enters the airspace to say nothing of actually LANDING at the TERMINAL...you are in another country.
And if Immigration denies you entry then...you are still physically in that country at that point.
And nobody can guarantee that one won't be turned around. Valid passport or not the Immigration of just about any country can deny anyone they want. The fact that most Immigration services don't care as long as you are not a criminal or wanted and have all the paperwork necessary does not matter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How would one's inability enter a foreign country negate one's right to leave or return to his or her own? |
Well how can you leave your country if you cannot enter another country? Where will you go? To another dimension?
As for returning to your own country...to return you had to leave and to leave you had to gain entrance to a foreign country and without a passport that is typically not possibly legally. |
If one had to guarantee that one wouldn't be turned around by Immigration at one's destination before leaving, nobody would travel internationally.
And so, if one can be refused entry into a country, it should be clear that there is no need to gain entrance to another country before returning to one's own. |
Oh but there is.
The SECOND the plane enters the airspace to say nothing of actually LANDING at the TERMINAL...you are in another country.
And if Immigration denies you entry then...you are still physically in that country at that point.
And nobody can guarantee that one won't be turned around. Valid passport or not the Immigration of just about any country can deny anyone they want. The fact that most Immigration services don't care as long as you are not a criminal or wanted and have all the paperwork necessary does not matter. |
You realize that you're making the same point I was, right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
