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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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lol
He loses a free election and that's the end of democracy.
On the topic of democracy though, I'm glad that Greece is showing us today the danger of an over-spending welfare state, just as they demonstrated the basic principles of democracy long ago...
On the other hand, it certainly is the end of any shreds of unbiased reporting from MSNBC or Fox News. Lets hope the BBC or Al-Jazeera step up to fill the void that CNN's crash is leaving. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
lol
He loses a free election and that's the end of democracy.
On the topic of democracy though, I'm glad that Greece is showing us today the danger of an over-spending welfare state, just as they demonstrated the basic principles of democracy long ago...
On the other hand, it certainly is the end of any shreds of unbiased reporting from MSNBC or Fox News. Lets hope the BBC or Al-Jazeera step up to fill the void that CNN's crash is leaving. |
I wonder if a proper BBC News channel would fly in the States. I'm not holding my breath on Al Jazeera; I'm a huge fan, but I think a lot of people automatically distrust them. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Citzens United States of America |
Well, Walker would have been allowed to raise as much money for this election as he wanted even without Citizens United, but Citizens United is probably partially responsible for the framework from which he did end up drawing those vast sums.
I spoke with my mother before this election, and Walker's campaign commercials were pretty clearly embedded in her psyche. More or less everything she had to say sounded like it came word-for-word from a Walker propaganda ad. She herself would have voted for Walker anyway; she's one of those people I mentioned recently in another thread, who votes Republican because she's got it in her head that she's a Republican and for no other reason. There are many independents, though, who were no doubt swayed by what they saw on the telly.
It's worth noting that over the course of these recalls, Democrats seem to have taken back the Wisconsin Senate. Of course, since the Republicans just drew up new, heavily-gerrymandered maps for the November elections, it's entirely possible that the Republicans will win back the Senate in November, but that has more to do with system-manipulating political corruption than the will of the people.
In any case, with regards to Walker, the people of Wisconsin made their choice. I hope it works out for them, I really do: I may not agree with Walker or his policies, but I disagree with them only because I simply don't think they'll succeed, so if the state is going to embrace them then I hope for their sake it works out. I doubt it will, though. If and when I go back to America, I doubt I'll be returning to my home state. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
On the topic of democracy though, I'm glad that Greece is showing us today the danger of an over-spending welfare state, just as they demonstrated the basic principles of democracy long ago...
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Yet, many other European welfare states are in better shape that the US.
Greece, Italy and Spain have a lot to do with corruption and tax evasion. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
On the topic of democracy though, I'm glad that Greece is showing us today the danger of an over-spending welfare state, just as they demonstrated the basic principles of democracy long ago...
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Yet, many other European welfare states are in better shape that the US.
Greece, Italy and Spain have a lot to do with corruption and tax evasion. |
I lean pretty far to the left politically, but this is a fallacy. Yes, corruption did play a role, but in Greece's case specifically, ridiculous labor and entitlement policies have played a huge role. I remember reading in Michael Lewis' Boomerang that the average public sector worker in Greece was making more than the average banker in Germany; unless you're the most ardent ideologue, that makes no sense. Greece has had some of the best teacher to student ratios in the EU, while some of the lowest educational attainment. They allowed a retirement age of 55 (I believe) for workers in certain fields, including full salary (IIRC). The premise for early retirement was that certain jobs were dangerous, including hairdressing and baking. Yeah, there are countries with great social programs that do well, but to pretend as if Greece's policy choices weren't the issue is ridiculous. At the end of the day, Greece's government dug this hole of its own accord. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
lol
He loses a free election and that's the end of democracy.
On the topic of democracy though, I'm glad that Greece is showing us today the danger of an over-spending welfare state, just as they demonstrated the basic principles of democracy long ago...
On the other hand, it certainly is the end of any shreds of unbiased reporting from MSNBC or Fox News. Lets hope the BBC or Al-Jazeera step up to fill the void that CNN's crash is leaving. |
it's hardly a free election when millions and millions are spent just to run a candidate - and the winner outspent the loser by an obscene amount:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/04/us/politics/money-spent-on-wisconsin-recall-election.html |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
lol
He loses a free election and that's the end of democracy.
On the topic of democracy though, I'm glad that Greece is showing us today the danger of an over-spending welfare state, just as they demonstrated the basic principles of democracy long ago...
On the other hand, it certainly is the end of any shreds of unbiased reporting from MSNBC or Fox News. Lets hope the BBC or Al-Jazeera step up to fill the void that CNN's crash is leaving. |
it's hardly a free election when millions and millions are spent just to run a candidate - and the winner outspent the loser by an obscene amount:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/04/us/politics/money-spent-on-wisconsin-recall-election.html |
Actually, yeah it is. So what if the winner outspent the loser: what does that have to do with people freely choosing who to vote for? Most people are ignorant and selfish and just vote for whoever promises them the most "free" goodies. But that's democracy. Anyway, I didn't hear all the leftists whining when Obama outspent McCain (with money donated by all the big Wall Street banks, no less). |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Walker could have been a Commie-Nazi Islamist Anarchist and I still wouldn't have supported a recall unless he was found guilty of corruption or some other offense. Recalls should only be used in that case, not when someone campaigns on Right-wing government slashing principles and then, shockingly, practices right-wing slashing while in office.
That's the problem with representative democracy these days. More power needs to be given to the winners of elections. The people have made their choice, the direction has been decided. What remains is simply nitpicking over details on the vehicle to use. |
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kberger
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad Walker won. Maybe emotions will cool down for a while. I would expect things to get intense again around the November elections.
Strange and slightly humorous video of a woman upset with Barrett for conceding too early:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yGYfFQjybs&feature=related |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Walker could have been a Commie-Nazi Islamist Anarchist and I still wouldn't have supported a recall unless he was found guilty of corruption or some other offense. Recalls should only be used in that case, not when someone campaigns on Right-wing government slashing principles and then, shockingly, practices right-wing slashing while in office.
That's the problem with representative democracy these days. More power needs to be given to the winners of elections. The people have made their choice, the direction has been decided. What remains is simply nitpicking over details on the vehicle to use. |
Right. I can't stand Walker or his policies, but I probably would've stayed home rather than vote for something that was clearly frivolous and partisan. Our political system is messed up enough as it is, all we need is to establish the precedent of recall elections if you make unpopular choices. This isn't to say I'm happy that Walker won, but I'd rather not worsen the situation with our never ending election cycle. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
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The nice thing about federalism is that people like Northway and Steelrails can have their "Elected representatives can do anything short of breaking the law and you have to wait years to do anything about it," states, and the people of Wisconsin can have their more immediately-accountable system of representation, and there is no conflict.
Seriously, this is not something non-Wisconsinites need an opinion on. I am extremely dissapointed at how much outsiders meddled in this local matter. A huge portion of Walker's influence was bought with outsider money and driven by outsider-produced propaganda. Now you totally unrelated individuals need to even begrudge us our own elections? Ridiculous. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
The nice thing about federalism is that people like Northway and Steelrails can have their "Elected representatives can do anything short of breaking the law and you have to wait years to do anything about it," states, and the people of Wisconsin can have their more immediately-accountable system of representation, and there is no conflict.
Seriously, this is not something non-Wisconsinites need an opinion on. I am extremely dissapointed at how much outsiders meddled in this local matter. A huge portion of Walker's influence was bought with outsider money and driven by outsider-produced propaganda. Now you totally unrelated individuals need to even begrudge us our own elections? Ridiculous. |
Having an opinion isn't meddling. Really though, I've made my opinion of Walker quite clear, but that doesn't change my feeling that politicians in America are incapable of making any unpopular decision, on both sides of the aisle. Alas, politicians sometimes need to make unpopular decisions in order to do their jobs well. If you take that power out of their hands, we get even deeper into the politics of now over the politics of tomorrow. It sets a dangerous precedent if we have a recall every time a politician does something we don't like. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Walker and his Republicans did notmerely do something we did not like. You can be forgiven for not understanding this, being from elsewhere, but these people are urinating on the character and history of Wisconsin; plenty of merely unpopular decisions have been made in Wisconsin politics without recalls being triggered, which should imply to you the magnitude of what occurred here. Control of the senate did not flip in these recalls over mild disagreement, and a choice being unpopular does not make it right. "Making the hard choices," is far too often code for the enactment of abusive plutocratic policies. This goes double when the topic is austerity and upwards redistribution of wealth.
I am glad that the people of Wisconsin had the opportunity to reconsider these electoral choices, even if I disagree with their conclusion. I do not care how you handle recalls in your state, but Wisconsin has managed perfectly well under its current recall rules. You ought not to condescend to its people in such a fashion. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| He violated his mandate, yet the election had essentially the same results as in the first go around? I realize the gravity of what Walker did, and I had friends working on the ground in Wisconsin, but I still have to wonder about the precedent. What's to keep Republicans from attempting to recall a Democratic governor when he vetoes a ban on gay marriage or restricts abortion rights? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Walker and his Republicans did notmerely do something we did not like. You can be forgiven for not understanding this, being from elsewhere, but these people are urinating on the character and history of Wisconsin; plenty of merely unpopular decisions have been made in Wisconsin politics without recalls being triggered, which should imply to you the magnitude of what occurred here. |
Then I'm glad that the people of Wisconsin realized that "urinating on the character and history of Wisconsin" is exactly what is necessary moving forward. I didn't move to your State and vote for him, I didn't donate money to his campaign (or the national GOP for that matter) and I've done nothing to "meddle" in the result. But when a State does something major (particularly something that has only occurred 4 times in U.S. history) you can expect for plenty of people like me to have an opinion on it. |
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