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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
[q
How many people are going to go out on the streets and protest when they're not even citizens, and Korea in violation of your human rights can deport you simply for protesting.
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Being deporting for violating the terms of your visa is NOT a violation of your human rights.
If people protest and their visa specifically forbids it (such as the E-2 visa does) then Korea is perfectly justified in deporting them and has committed no violation.
Besides which being deported is not a human rights violation anyway (except in cases where if you are sent back to your home country you will be killed/tortured)
Deportation is a legitimate immigration tool which can be and is used by all countries for people who are not citizens and violate the laws of their host country. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| urbanmyth, I thought teachers had legal rights in Korea. I think you are confused. You're saying we have no legal rights at all? What is your expertise in this area? Would you mind posting links to prove that teachers have no legal rights? |
I never said we had NO legal rights.
I said we don't have the SAME legal rights as citizens.
Some of them to be sure but not ALL. |
Which ones do we have? You brought up the point so prove it. |
The only point I bought up was that we don't have the same amount of rights as citizens do.
You want me to prove something that is self-evident?
Fine here are three for you
We can't vote (F-visas can in some elections but not in presidential ones)
We can't protest (at least for E-2 visas)
We can't stay here indefinitely without notifying the Immigration Office. |
So, you admit that our power is not political but rather it is economic? |
As regards the bolded part that is the exact idea I was trying to get you understand.
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Again I would like to raise the point that there may be a loophole around this.
We cannot engage in political activity or political protest, however since MBC is a semi-private company (and is distributed through media service providers) it might be possible to specifically protest MBC (or whatever media company is providing the network via cable or satellite) as a "Customer Complaint".
The key to this of course is eliminating any mention of the government or the nation as a whole and focus solely on the network. Also, ditch mentions of "human rights" or such and stick to portraying it either as "bad customer service".
Thomas Friedman has a recent article on Facebook activism and its limits.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/opinion/sunday/friedman-facebook-meets-brick-and-mortar-politics.html |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
Your logic:
Europe grew a lot without jet power, ergo jets are not helpful to present day European economies. Great job with the haha's too. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| urbanmyth, I thought teachers had legal rights in Korea. I think you are confused. You're saying we have no legal rights at all? What is your expertise in this area? Would you mind posting links to prove that teachers have no legal rights? |
I never said we had NO legal rights.
I said we don't have the SAME legal rights as citizens.
Some of them to be sure but not ALL. |
Which ones do we have? You brought up the point so prove it. |
The only point I bought up was that we don't have the same amount of rights as citizens do.
You want me to prove something that is self-evident?
Fine here are three for you
We can't vote (F-visas can in some elections but not in presidential ones)
We can't protest (at least for E-2 visas)
We can't stay here indefinitely without notifying the Immigration Office. |
So, you admit that our power is not political but rather it is economic? |
As regards the bolded part that is the exact idea I was trying to get you understand.
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
In my view, I do think we do contribute to the Korean economy.
You're forgetting something economists called human capital.
When Koreans learn English, it's something that's added to them just like when you get an education. It's an asset for your country. So if many Koreans do improve significantly when it comes to English, and if it has something to do with the foreign presence in the country, then we're an asset. If they didn't think we'd be an asset, they wouldn't have sent for us.
The economic power is not from us, it's from the countries we come from. Korea would be more concerned if such embarrassing news was not contained and spread like fire to certain countries since it's doing its best to attract investments and tourism. In 1998, it wouldn't have made much of a difference, but people in 2012 who are incensed with this can spread this like wild-fire. The fact that the French media, French Canadian media, some in the American media, Asian Wall Street Journal etc... reported this is positive. Some Koreans abroad will have read those articles, too. Westerners questioned government people about that report, as well. I'm sure the government was embarrassed by it somehow. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
[q
How many people are going to go out on the streets and protest when they're not even citizens, and Korea in violation of your human rights can deport you simply for protesting.
. |
Being deporting for violating the terms of your visa is NOT a violation of your human rights.
If people protest and their visa specifically forbids it (such as the E-2 visa does) then Korea is perfectly justified in deporting them and has committed no violation.
Besides which being deported is not a human rights violation anyway (except in cases where if you are sent back to your home country you will be killed/tortured)
Deportation is a legitimate immigration tool which can be and is used by all countries for people who are not citizens and violate the laws of their host country. |
Your terms for your visa is not what I'm referring to. I'm not referring to legal rights. I'm referring to moral rights. A human right isn't necessarily a legal right. In many cases, it's a moral right. I think if someone is protesting prejudice, that it's a moral right regardless of what a visa states. I wouldn't do it because it's against the law. It was against the law also for black men in some cases to drink water at some fountains. However, it was a violation of their human rights. I'm citing an extreme comparison, but I'm saying you can cite what legal rights we have, but I think the right to protest is a human right.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-smith/is-there-a-legal-right-to_b_1081177.html
But the human rights movement is more than a legal movement. It's also a moral movement. Many human rights, such as freedom of assembly, need not require positive legal force before they can be coherently asserted as a human right. History is replete with examples of civilians exercising rights to defiant states that didn't recognize their rights. These cases usually do not bend our legal sensibilities, and they usually make moral sense. |
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CaliUSA
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| urbanmyth, I thought teachers had legal rights in Korea. I think you are confused. You're saying we have no legal rights at all? What is your expertise in this area? Would you mind posting links to prove that teachers have no legal rights? |
I never said we had NO legal rights.
I said we don't have the SAME legal rights as citizens.
Some of them to be sure but not ALL. |
Which ones do we have? You brought up the point so prove it. |
The only point I bought up was that we don't have the same amount of rights as citizens do.
You want me to prove something that is self-evident?
Fine here are three for you
We can't vote (F-visas can in some elections but not in presidential ones)
We can't protest (at least for E-2 visas)
We can't stay here indefinitely without notifying the Immigration Office. |
So, you admit that our power is not political but rather it is economic? |
As regards the bolded part that is the exact idea I was trying to get you understand.
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
"Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help."
This is only true in the most limited and literal sense--i.e., Korea became a relatively large economy without the help of EFL teachers who post on Dave's. But in the larger historical view, "Korea built itself...to the 13th largest economy" is utterly false. Korea has benefited hugely from an international network of trade, and its economic growth since WW2 is inseparable from American and Japanese influences and expertise.
South Korea occupied a key strategic position during the Cold War and received a great deal of economic aid from the USA. To take just one instance, they sent troops to fight on the American side during the Vietnam War. From Wikipedia ("Koreans in Vietnam"): "In total, between 1965 and 1973, 312,853 South Korean soldiers fought in Vietnam; Vietnam's Ministry of Culture and Communications estimated they killed 41,400 North Vietnamese Army soldiers and 5,000 civilians." This aid for America's military effort in Vietnam was part of a business deal with the American government. That isn't building your own country up from scratch with nothing but hard work. And the economic growth came, as it so often does, at someone else's expense (Vietnam's).
Over the past few decades, white people in the USA have had their myths of autonomy and entitlement questioned; social critics have pointed out that much of their success was based upon unacknowledged privileges and outright exploitation (most outstandingly, slavery). I think this development is all for the good: it's better to acknowledge connections to others than to construct myths of self-sufficiency and inviolate cultural integrity.
No doubt, Koreans have bravely recovered from a traumatic series of events in the twentieth century. I also generally respect posters who defend Koreans and their culture on this board, since if it were solely a forum for griping about and castigating South Korea, it would be a very ugly forum indeed. But please, let's not construct a myth around Korean self-sufficiency and national autonomy ("they deserve everything they have because they worked really hard"). The myth is not any more true to history than the white Americans' myth, and it can have bad consequences for getting along with cultural "others" in the present. |
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Your terms for your visa is not what I'm referring to. I'm not referring to legal rights. I'm referring to moral rights. A human right isn't necessarily a legal right. In many cases, it's a moral right. I think if someone is protesting prejudice, that it's a moral right regardless of what a visa states. I wouldn't do it because it's against the law. It was against the law also for black men in some cases to drink water at some fountains. However, it was a violation of their human rights. I'm citing an extreme comparison, but I'm saying you can cite what legal rights we have, but I think the right to protest is a human right.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-smith/is-there-a-legal-right-to_b_1081177.html
But the human rights movement is more than a legal movement. It's also a moral movement. Many human rights, such as freedom of assembly, need not require positive legal force before they can be coherently asserted as a human right. History is replete with examples of civilians exercising rights to defiant states that didn't recognize their rights. These cases usually do not bend our legal sensibilities, and they usually make moral sense. |
If you're old enough you may also remember that South African Apartheid was perfectly legal since the rules were made by the ruling class, but few today would argue that these laws were not in violation of human rights.
In this case of course it's not a balanced comparison, but it should suffice to illustrate that not everything which is legal is also right (might as well add the Nuremberg Laws of NS Germany, anti-abortion or anti-gay laws, or anything in China). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
Your logic:
Europe grew a lot without jet power, ergo jets are not helpful to present day European economies. Great job with the haha's too. |
That is not my logic at all. ESL teachers are a luxury. Jet power is not.
Pretty much a fail on your part here. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CaliUSA wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| urbanmyth, I thought teachers had legal rights in Korea. I think you are confused. You're saying we have no legal rights at all? What is your expertise in this area? Would you mind posting links to prove that teachers have no legal rights? |
I never said we had NO legal rights.
I said we don't have the SAME legal rights as citizens.
Some of them to be sure but not ALL. |
Which ones do we have? You brought up the point so prove it. |
The only point I bought up was that we don't have the same amount of rights as citizens do.
You want me to prove something that is self-evident?
Fine here are three for you
We can't vote (F-visas can in some elections but not in presidential ones)
We can't protest (at least for E-2 visas)
We can't stay here indefinitely without notifying the Immigration Office. |
So, you admit that our power is not political but rather it is economic? |
As regards the bolded part that is the exact idea I was trying to get you understand.
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
"Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help."
This is only true in the most limited and literal sense--i.e., Korea became a relatively large economy without the help of EFL teachers who post on Dave's. |
And that is ALL I was referring to which should have been obvious from the preceding paragraph. I very clearly stated that I was talking about foreign teachers. THAT was my argument...not the one you just put in my mouth. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| For younger Koreans learning English is not seen as a luxury. It is seen as a necessity, for many reasons. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| orosee wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
Your terms for your visa is not what I'm referring to. I'm not referring to legal rights. I'm referring to moral rights. A human right isn't necessarily a legal right. In many cases, it's a moral right. I think if someone is protesting prejudice, that it's a moral right regardless of what a visa states. I wouldn't do it because it's against the law. It was against the law also for black men in some cases to drink water at some fountains. However, it was a violation of their human rights. I'm citing an extreme comparison, but I'm saying you can cite what legal rights we have, but I think the right to protest is a human right.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-smith/is-there-a-legal-right-to_b_1081177.html
But the human rights movement is more than a legal movement. It's also a moral movement. Many human rights, such as freedom of assembly, need not require positive legal force before they can be coherently asserted as a human right. History is replete with examples of civilians exercising rights to defiant states that didn't recognize their rights. These cases usually do not bend our legal sensibilities, and they usually make moral sense. |
If you're old enough you may also remember that South African Apartheid was perfectly legal since the rules were made by the ruling class, but few today would argue that these laws were not in violation of human rights.
In this case of course it's not a balanced comparison, but it should suffice to illustrate that not everything which is legal is also right (might as well add the Nuremberg Laws of NS Germany, anti-abortion or anti-gay laws, or anything in China). |
That is what I was stating to Urban Myth. He stated that since the E-2 laws, that it cannot be viewed as a violation of our human rights since it's a visa-related law. Yet, many people view it as a moral, human right to assemble and protest. If Westerners wanted to protested MBC demeaning black people by having people with black faces as they did in January and trashing all Western people as they just did recently, it should be our right to protest against it without having to fear being deported. At any rate, MBC should have the sense not to have such a show that is blatantly sexist and may possibly contain lies or half-truths and then get that reported in the French media, American media etc....
It's not a smart move, if you're trying to get closer to your trading partners and promote a positive image of yourself. MBC should have had enough common sense to where we wouldn't even have to have this conversation. I think they underestimated the potential backlash.
This thing went viral. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As for economic power.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh. Foreign teachers are less than 1% of the population. Our economic contribution is negligible. Korea built itself (at one point) to the 13th largest economy in the world without our help. And anyway we are an net expense not an economic asset as most of us end up taking money OUT of the country. |
Your logic:
Europe grew a lot without jet power, ergo jets are not helpful to present day European economies. Great job with the haha's too. |
That is not my logic at all. ESL teachers are a luxury. Jet power is not.
Pretty much a fail on your part here. |
Are EFL instructors simply a luxury? Is that how to analyze that economically speaking? Couldn't you say getting a university education in North America or England is a luxury? Those who can afford an education in many cases, get one. That makes it a luxury. However, the more educated a population is, the better it is in many cases for the economy, and the more likely a country will have a higher GDP -Gross Domestic Product. If EFL instructors succeed and many Koreans do improve their English and use that to help them trade with other countries, then clearly the English they learned added to the over all human capital of the country, and treating human capital as irrelevant does not make sense when you look at economics. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| [That is what I was stating to Urban Myth. He stated that since the E-2 laws, that it cannot be viewed as a violation of our human rights since it's a visa-related law. Yet, many people view it as a moral, human right to assemble and protest. . |
And many don't. Very few countries look kindly upon on NON-CITIZENS assembling and protesting. Plus when we accepted the E-2 visa we gave up that right as we accepted that we could be deported for doing so. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| [ If EFL instructors succeed and many Koreans do improve their English and use that to help them trade with other countries, then clearly the English they learned added to the over all human capital of the country, and treating human capital as irrelevant does not make sense when you look at economics. |
How long have EFL instructors been here?
And where does Korea rank in English?
That alone should tell you something. |
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