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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
[There's a problem with your logic here. What is spent? Money is spent. Korea overtook Japan, which is in 14th place. Where would Korea be if it did not spend that money. You also forget that certain places that best Korea were former British colonial possessions like Singapore and Malaysia. And the Philippines was heavily influenced by the U.S. for many decades. You avoid giving the proper context to their position.
Earlier, you were dismissive of the idea that the EFL instructors contribute to the Korean economy, and you're using the fact that it's only 3rd in terms of ranking in Asia to say it was pointless for all those EFL instructors to have come, when Koreans can use the English they learned to help them trade with other countries, and that's why we're here in many cases. So only if they received a ranking of number 1 would it have been worthwhile for foreign EFL instructors to be here? That's almost what it sounds like you're saying. It's a losing point. If Korea didn't think it was vital for them economically, that we come here, we would not be here. We're not simply a luxury as you stated. If we have helped them improve somewhat then that's for their economic good. |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. Secondly most people can (if they know how to budget) save around half or so of their money which they then take with them when they leave. As opposed to that money being paid to a Korean and being spent in Korea.
Secondly I'm not saying that it is pointless for ESL/EFL instructors to come...I'm saying Korea is not getting value for its money as COMPARED to other places. This is not to say that there are no problems with the Korean hiring system. They should double the salary and halve the positions and place qualifications first and foremost. At 4 million won a month they wouldn't have trouble hiring qualified certifed teachers and it wouldn't cost anymore than now (remember there is only 1/2 the positions). They'd actually save money on the housing and insurance. |
The value of a teacher may not be apparent now but give it time. If you really are a teacher then you would understand this point.
The Korean students who do want to learn English, who are willing to put in the time and effort, are learning English and having native speakers available for them is making a difference for them. Plus, this generation of younger Koreans will be much more at ease around foreigners because they've had access to us at school. How can you measure that impact, right now? You can't but, still, that progress is there and we all know it. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| wylies99 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
[There's a problem with your logic here. What is spent? Money is spent. Korea overtook Japan, which is in 14th place. Where would Korea be if it did not spend that money. You also forget that certain places that best Korea were former British colonial possessions like Singapore and Malaysia. And the Philippines was heavily influenced by the U.S. for many decades. You avoid giving the proper context to their position.
Earlier, you were dismissive of the idea that the EFL instructors contribute to the Korean economy, and you're using the fact that it's only 3rd in terms of ranking in Asia to say it was pointless for all those EFL instructors to have come, when Koreans can use the English they learned to help them trade with other countries, and that's why we're here in many cases. So only if they received a ranking of number 1 would it have been worthwhile for foreign EFL instructors to be here? That's almost what it sounds like you're saying. It's a losing point. If Korea didn't think it was vital for them economically, that we come here, we would not be here. We're not simply a luxury as you stated. If we have helped them improve somewhat then that's for their economic good. |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. Secondly most people can (if they know how to budget) save around half or so of their money which they then take with them when they leave. As opposed to that money being paid to a Korean and being spent in Korea.
Secondly I'm not saying that it is pointless for ESL/EFL instructors to come...I'm saying Korea is not getting value for its money as COMPARED to other places. This is not to say that there are no problems with the Korean hiring system. They should double the salary and halve the positions and place qualifications first and foremost. At 4 million won a month they wouldn't have trouble hiring qualified certifed teachers and it wouldn't cost anymore than now (remember there is only 1/2 the positions). They'd actually save money on the housing and insurance. |
The value of a teacher may not be apparent now but give it time. If you really are a teacher then you would understand this point.
The Korean students who do want to learn English, who are willing to put in the time and effort, are learning English and having native speakers available for them is making a difference for them. Plus, this generation of younger Koreans will be much more at ease around foreigners because they've had access to us at school. How can you measure that impact, right now? You can't but, still, that progress is there and we all know it. |
Westerners have been coming to South Korea to teach in larger numbers since the 1990s. Korean is said to be an Altaic language. It's not even remotely close to English. The fact that Korea ranks 13th in the world is nothing to be sneezed at if we want to be fair to Korean learners. I admit that I wasn't so fair in the past and critical. I would like Korean learners to do much better. English education was horrible in Korea before the 1990s. I'm pretty sure we've made a positive impact.
Why? Well, each instructor teaches probably around 100 students a year. And think of how many Koreans have Western friends and get to practice their English with those said Westerners. You can't simply look at the percentage of foreigners in Korea for 2012 and ignore all our fellow teachers who came here in the 1990s and even before that, but especially in the 1990s. Those of us here today owe a lot to those who came before us. I acknowledge their contribution. I'm also certain there are more Korean teachers who speak better English. I don't think being ranked 13 when your citizens don't speak an Indo-European language is so bad. The money has helped. However, there are many things that have stopped Korea from being say 9th in the world.
http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2011/04/ask-korean-news-were-no-13-were-no-13.html |
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. [...] |
But isn't that like saying "the seed doesn't contribute to the forest because it's only 1/100,000th of a tree?" |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| It's unfair to say that native teachers are not making a positive impact in their schools. Maybe the native teachers are pulling things in the right direction and other factors are dragging down English education in Korea? Did you ever consider that, urbanmyth? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| orosee wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. [...] |
But isn't that like saying "the seed doesn't contribute to the forest because it's only 1/100,000th of a tree?" |
You failed to quote the second point I made...I don't know whether you just missed it or you realized it destroyed your argument.
Let's look at it again. Joe Smith gets 2.2 million per month to teach here. His goal is to save and pay off his student loans. Now let's say he saves a million per month and sends that home to pay off his student loans. That is money that LEAVES the country. That is as opposed to a native Korean teacher who will be spending that money INSIDE Korea and thus contributing to the Korean economy. That is why NETS are not an asset to the local economy overall...that is money that otherwise would be spent here. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
| It's unfair to say that native teachers are not making a positive impact in their schools. Maybe the native teachers are pulling things in the right direction and other factors are dragging down English education in Korea? Did you ever consider that, urbanmyth? |
Re: the bolded part.
I never said any such thing. I said Korea is not getting value for its money as opposed to other countries.
That is not the same as saying they are getting NO value.
If you are going to respond to me it would be appreciated if you responded to what I actually said instead of making things up.
As far as "other factors" go I already addressed that. |
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| orosee wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. [...] |
But isn't that like saying "the seed doesn't contribute to the forest because it's only 1/100,000th of a tree?" |
You failed to quote the second point I made...I don't know whether you just missed it or you realized it destroyed your argument.
Let's look at it again. Joe Smith gets 2.2 million per month to teach here. His goal is to save and pay off his student loans. Now let's say he saves a million per month and sends that home to pay off his student loans. That is money that LEAVES the country. That is as opposed to a native Korean teacher who will be spending that money INSIDE Korea and thus contributing to the Korean economy. That is why NETS are not an asset to the local economy overall...that is money that otherwise would be spent here. |
Er, you're right, I missed that. Monday eyes, and I was feeling a bit Zen so that seed/forest thing came bursting out of my half-closed mind  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| orosee wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. [...] |
But isn't that like saying "the seed doesn't contribute to the forest because it's only 1/100,000th of a tree?" |
You failed to quote the second point I made...I don't know whether you just missed it or you realized it destroyed your argument.
Let's look at it again. Joe Smith gets 2.2 million per month to teach here. His goal is to save and pay off his student loans. Now let's say he saves a million per month and sends that home to pay off his student loans. That is money that LEAVES the country. That is as opposed to a native Korean teacher who will be spending that money INSIDE Korea and thus contributing to the Korean economy. That is why NETS are not an asset to the local economy overall...that is money that otherwise would be spent here. |
He was responding to the fact that you said that Westerners teaching here are not a very large group. You said that, counselor, and you know it. Then, when he responds to that, you act as if you didn't say it. The fact of the matter is that each teacher teaches say 100 students in many cases per year. I'm being conservative.
If there are 30,000 of us teaching every year that's 300,000 learning from us. It's mainly among the elites, of course. Let's say since 1990 we've had an average of 22,000 foreigners teaching in Korea. That's 22 years. That's 440,000 teachers. Multiply that by 100. That's 4.4 million. I'm being conservative. And you have to factor in that many of those Westerners had Korean friends who went on to become teachers, and the number becomes much higher. Those Koreans who improved by having lots of contact with Westerners are something you haven't thought about. And they teach lots of kids, too. You look at this too simplistically.
You're trying to economically quantify something like education. The fact of the matter is Korea is #13 in the world and has improved. Korean elites need to learn English to trade. Consider that all that English learned helped facilitate so many trade deals, and you did not factor that into your calculation. Yes, we send money home, but once Koreans learn English it stays with them.
Koreans need to learn English to compete. Since you didn't look at this from as many angles as possible, you could only see the limited benefit of EFL teachers having been present here in larger numbers since the 1990s. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| orosee wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| orosee wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
EFL instructors do NOT contribute in a meaningful way into the economy because of 2 things. First of all we are less than half of ONE percent of the population. Our contribution is meaningless. [...] |
But isn't that like saying "the seed doesn't contribute to the forest because it's only 1/100,000th of a tree?" |
You failed to quote the second point I made...I don't know whether you just missed it or you realized it destroyed your argument.
Let's look at it again. Joe Smith gets 2.2 million per month to teach here. His goal is to save and pay off his student loans. Now let's say he saves a million per month and sends that home to pay off his student loans. That is money that LEAVES the country. That is as opposed to a native Korean teacher who will be spending that money INSIDE Korea and thus contributing to the Korean economy. That is why NETS are not an asset to the local economy overall...that is money that otherwise would be spent here. |
Er, you're right, I missed that. Monday eyes, and I was feeling a bit Zen so that seed/forest thing came bursting out of my half-closed mind |
Thousands of people who immigrate to the US send money overseas in many cases, but they still add to the economy. Of course, we send money home. The fact of the matter is if they want to learn English from native speakers, then there is a cost to that. We can easily compute the moneys sent home by Westerners, but we can't compute the revenue generated by Koreans doing business deals because they learned English partially thanks to their foreign and Korean English teachers, and the Korean teachers have also benefited from our presence. The fact that Korea has improved in the rankings shows a benefit to our presence. I doubt that Korea simply improved thanks to the Korean teachers efforts, and that it has nothing to with the EFL teachers who have taught several million Koreans. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I think NETs are well worth the investment. It's a relatively minimal expenditure at the government level and has the potential for great rewards. As for private firms, it depends on each firm. Aside from the budget used to pay for us, there are virtually no social costs and certainly plenty of social benefits. I really don't see any reason to object to things beyond perhaps tweaking things. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Well, it's happening.
I was out on Saturday night in Itaewon looking for some girls (as esl bums do) when 5 drunken ajossis grabbed me and started yelling at me. It was broken english so I can't verify but it had something to do with aids being no problem and korean girls loving me. I was then forced to sit at a plastic picnic table in front of family mart and down 2 bottles of soju right there, so my memories of the night are a little bit hazy.
I'm pretty sure we hit every place in Itaewon that night, the good news was they snuck bottles of soju into the bars and clubs so we weren't buying any of the steep cocktails. The bad news was everytime a girl walked past these guys grabbed her by the arm and tried to push her into me like we were going make something happen on the spot, then they would head towards her friends who just ran away screaming. Even though i was drunk I kept trying to explain to them that MBC was lying and it doesn't really happen like that, but they just responded with a lot of korean and english words like "small face" and "high nose", "beckham", "will smith" etc. Despite my inebriated state I eventually convinced two South African girls to pretend they were into me with hopes that the guys might leave me alone thinking I needed some privacy. Instead they dragged all of us into a noraebang. It was actually going pretty well until they called in the singing girls, which caused the South African ladies to subsequently flee.
I had found a nice corner on the couch and was trying desperately to pass out but was quickly awakened by the singing girls who were screaming at the ajossis, apparently they thought the girls wouldn't want to be paid since they got to spend time with a foreigner as charming as myself. I actually got up at that point and was heading for the door when in walked a jacked korean guy about 5 inches taller than me wearing a wife beater and sporting two matching coy tattooed on his forearms. He didn't say a word, just looked around the room. The 5 ajossis pointed at me and said something about aids. I'm not really sure what happened after that. I just woke up in the hospital. Typing this on my galaxy. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Well, it's happening.
I was out on Saturday night in Itaewon looking for some girls (as esl bums do) when 5 drunken ajossis grabbed me and started yelling at me. It was broken english so I can't verify but it had something to do with aids being no problem and korean girls loving me. I was then forced to sit at a plastic picnic table in front of family mart and down 2 bottles of soju right there, so my memories of the night are a little bit hazy.
I'm pretty sure we hit every place in Itaewon that night, the good news was they snuck bottles of soju into the bars and clubs so we weren't buying any of the steep cocktails. The bad news was everytime a girl walked past these guys grabbed her by the arm and tried to push her into me like we were going make something happen on the spot, then they would head towards her friends who just ran away screaming. Even though i was drunk I kept trying to explain to them that MBC was lying and it doesn't really happen like that, but they just responded with a lot of korean and english words like "small face" and "high nose", "beckham", "will smith" etc. Despite my inebriated state I eventually convinced two South African girls to pretend they were into me with hopes that the guys might leave me alone thinking I needed some privacy. Instead they dragged all of us into a noraebang. It was actually going pretty well until they called in the singing girls, which caused the South African ladies to subsequently flee.
I had found a nice corner on the couch and was trying desperately to pass out but was quickly awakened by the singing girls who were screaming at the ajossis, apparently they thought the girls wouldn't want to be paid since they got to spend time with a foreigner as charming as myself. I actually got up at that point and was heading for the door when in walked a jacked korean guy about 5 inches taller than me wearing a wife beater and sporting two matching coy tattooed on his forearms. He didn't say a word, just looked around the room. The 5 ajossis pointed at me and said something about aids. I'm not really sure what happened after that. I just woke up in the hospital. Typing this on my galaxy. |
Awesome story. I know where I'll be going this weekend!  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| tiger fancini wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Well, it's happening.
I was out on Saturday night in Itaewon looking for some girls (as esl bums do) when 5 drunken ajossis grabbed me and started yelling at me. It was broken english so I can't verify but it had something to do with aids being no problem and korean girls loving me. I was then forced to sit at a plastic picnic table in front of family mart and down 2 bottles of soju right there, so my memories of the night are a little bit hazy.
I'm pretty sure we hit every place in Itaewon that night, the good news was they snuck bottles of soju into the bars and clubs so we weren't buying any of the steep cocktails. The bad news was everytime a girl walked past these guys grabbed her by the arm and tried to push her into me like we were going make something happen on the spot, then they would head towards her friends who just ran away screaming. Even though i was drunk I kept trying to explain to them that MBC was lying and it doesn't really happen like that, but they just responded with a lot of korean and english words like "small face" and "high nose", "beckham", "will smith" etc. Despite my inebriated state I eventually convinced two South African girls to pretend they were into me with hopes that the guys might leave me alone thinking I needed some privacy. Instead they dragged all of us into a noraebang. It was actually going pretty well until they called in the singing girls, which caused the South African ladies to subsequently flee.
I had found a nice corner on the couch and was trying desperately to pass out but was quickly awakened by the singing girls who were screaming at the ajossis, apparently they thought the girls wouldn't want to be paid since they got to spend time with a foreigner as charming as myself. I actually got up at that point and was heading for the door when in walked a jacked korean guy about 5 inches taller than me wearing a wife beater and sporting two matching coy tattooed on his forearms. He didn't say a word, just looked around the room. The 5 ajossis pointed at me and said something about aids. I'm not really sure what happened after that. I just woke up in the hospital. Typing this on my galaxy. |
Awesome story. I know where I'll be going this weekend! |
You're going to Itaewon to get some Itaewon Freedom?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N8c1t1QTDI |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| tiger fancini wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Well, it's happening.
I was out on Saturday night in Itaewon looking for some girls (as esl bums do) when 5 drunken ajossis grabbed me and started yelling at me. It was broken english so I can't verify but it had something to do with aids being no problem and korean girls loving me. I was then forced to sit at a plastic picnic table in front of family mart and down 2 bottles of soju right there, so my memories of the night are a little bit hazy.
I'm pretty sure we hit every place in Itaewon that night, the good news was they snuck bottles of soju into the bars and clubs so we weren't buying any of the steep cocktails. The bad news was everytime a girl walked past these guys grabbed her by the arm and tried to push her into me like we were going make something happen on the spot, then they would head towards her friends who just ran away screaming. Even though i was drunk I kept trying to explain to them that MBC was lying and it doesn't really happen like that, but they just responded with a lot of korean and english words like "small face" and "high nose", "beckham", "will smith" etc. Despite my inebriated state I eventually convinced two South African girls to pretend they were into me with hopes that the guys might leave me alone thinking I needed some privacy. Instead they dragged all of us into a noraebang. It was actually going pretty well until they called in the singing girls, which caused the South African ladies to subsequently flee.
I had found a nice corner on the couch and was trying desperately to pass out but was quickly awakened by the singing girls who were screaming at the ajossis, apparently they thought the girls wouldn't want to be paid since they got to spend time with a foreigner as charming as myself. I actually got up at that point and was heading for the door when in walked a jacked korean guy about 5 inches taller than me wearing a wife beater and sporting two matching coy tattooed on his forearms. He didn't say a word, just looked around the room. The 5 ajossis pointed at me and said something about aids. I'm not really sure what happened after that. I just woke up in the hospital. Typing this on my galaxy. |
Awesome story. I know where I'll be going this weekend! |
...props for this story...well done! |
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