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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Okay, so if a guy came to your house waving a gun in your face, there is no justification for violence? If he points that gun at you, there is no justification for violence? In my view, you have every right to attempt to subdue him. Note that I said subdue, and not kill, because you seem awfully peachy with the latter. |
That is when you walk inside and call the police. Or if you can't right away, attempt to defuse things to the point where you can walk away. Trying to play Rambo or Bruce Lee is just stupid and will likely lead to you getting shot or him. Yes if there are NO other options and you know he is going to kill you regardless then you might as well try to subdue him.
But that was not the situation here. |
Yes, they should have done that, but that doesn't change the legal case of where one man comes over to someone else house, waves his gun at them while provoking them, and then shoots one of them dead. That man is going to jail, and with good reason. I mean it's pretty obvious who was in the wrong here. |
I'm sure that it's pretty obvious that being "right" is not much compensation for being dead.
Again I'm not supporting the gunman or the victim. Both acted stupidly. One should not have bought the gun with him and the other should have gone inside and called the police or attempted to placate the gun-wielder until he leaves and THEN call the police. Don't provoke and above all do not advance on a man who's holding a gun. That is the epitome of stupidity and I find it hard to have any sympathy for him (or for that matter the other man). |
I'm not really interested in what they should have done, or not done. I'm more interested in the legal precedent. I hope that this ruling will stop people from trying to use this as a defense in this type of scenarios. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/jury-finds-man-justified-in-killing-under-floridas-stand-your-ground-law
Only it won't. Because most juries and judges take things on a case by case basis.
Some "stand-your-ground" cases will be found justified and some won't.
And the world keeps on turning, the sky won't fall and there will be bread on the table tomorrow. |
I know, but I'm saying that I hope that people will get the idea that this defense isn't a catch all, and that people won't think that just by saying I'm standing my ground they have some kind of impunity. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/jury-finds-man-justified-in-killing-under-floridas-stand-your-ground-law
Only it won't. Because most juries and judges take things on a case by case basis.
Some "stand-your-ground" cases will be found justified and some won't.
And the world keeps on turning, the sky won't fall and there will be bread on the table tomorrow. |
I know, but I'm saying that I hope that people will get the idea that this defense isn't a catch all, and that people won't think that just by saying I'm standing my ground they have some kind of impunity. |
Well okay, if that is what you meant then I can agree with this as well. Unfortunately I think we may have too much of a rosy view of human nature. Oh well one can hope. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| What's dumber, bringing a video camera and waving a gun around so you can shoot a guy or lying to a judge about your assets in a highly scrutinized case? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| What's dumber, bringing a video camera and waving a gun around so you can shoot a guy or lying to a judge about your assets in a highly scrutinized case? |
I'd say both rank pretty high on the scale of stupidity.
Wasn't it Zimmerman's wife who was accused of perjury and not Zimmerman? Or has he been charged as well? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| What's dumber, bringing a video camera and waving a gun around so you can shoot a guy or lying to a judge about your assets in a highly scrutinized case? |
I'd say both rank pretty high on the scale of stupidity.
Wasn't it Zimmerman's wife who was accused of perjury and not Zimmerman? Or has he been charged as well? |
My understanding was that he was caught lying, but wasn't under oath at the time. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| What's dumber, bringing a video camera and waving a gun around so you can shoot a guy or lying to a judge about your assets in a highly scrutinized case? |
I'd say both rank pretty high on the scale of stupidity.
Wasn't it Zimmerman's wife who was accused of perjury and not Zimmerman? Or has he been charged as well? |
He wasn't under oath, as they caught him lying on phone calls from jail, per my understanding. That said, it was incredibly clumsy on his part, speaking in amateurish code with his wife on what he knew was a recorded phone call. Given the national (international?) attention the case has received, he should have assumed those conversations would be reviewed.
His wife was later arrested for contempt of court due to her having lied under oath during his bond hearing. I don't think George spoke during his bond hearing. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/jury-finds-man-justified-in-killing-under-floridas-stand-your-ground-law
Only it won't. Because most juries and judges take things on a case by case basis.
Some "stand-your-ground" cases will be found justified and some won't.
And the world keeps on turning, the sky won't fall and there will be bread on the table tomorrow. |
Actually in the American legal system (as opposed to say, the French) what happens in other cases is significantly influential. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/jury-finds-man-justified-in-killing-under-floridas-stand-your-ground-law
Only it won't. Because most juries and judges take things on a case by case basis.
Some "stand-your-ground" cases will be found justified and some won't.
And the world keeps on turning, the sky won't fall and there will be bread on the table tomorrow. |
Actually in the American legal system (as opposed to say, the French) what happens in other cases is significantly influential. |
I find it hard to see precedent being a decisive factor in the Zimmerman case though. As we see above there is an example of a stand-your-ground case where the shooter was found guilty and another example where the shooter was found innocent. And I'm sure if anybody cared to dig up every single case they'd find more guilty and innocent verdicts. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-06/news/os-george-zimmerman-prepares-to-leave-jail-20120706_1_murder-defendant-new-felony-george-zimmerman
Zimmerman walks free again today after posting a 1 million dollar bond. See the above link for details |
I'm really curious how their assets went from essentially zero to having a million dollars in collateral at their disposal. It seems like they have a bit more than $200,000 from his legal defense website(s), but that leaves a lot more money unaccounted for. I'm not skeptical, just curious. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think a guy needs a million in collateral to find a bondsman willing to post a million bond. I believe he would need 100-200k. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Just a guess on my part but this matter has become such a cause celebre that I think some rich person or persons put up the money. A friend of mine joked that he's become the 'white OJ'...lol.
The money is minor and not pertinent to the case in my mind. I don't begrudge anyone facing a murder charge trying to get enough money for the best legal council and to stay out of jail. Guilty or not, anyone would do the same.
The lie detector test, although inadmissable has swayed me to some extent. I don't think he's not guilty but I do think that he believed in his version of things. or he's a damn good liar and has convinced himself.
I'm still highly suspicious and would love to know the chain of events that led to Martin and him fighting. The scenario of Martin arbitrarily attacking him and wanting to kill him makes no logical sense as I've said. Given what we know about Martin. Were he a violent person prior, I'd give it some credence. However, Zimmerman's past was much more violent and I wouldn't even say that Zimmerman had it in him to do what Martin did.
I think the chain of events died with Martin and with that the only evidence that could convict Zimmerman who I expect to be found either completely innocent or of a very minor charge.
My big worry is that the verdict will re-ignite racial animus. If he's innocent, Blacks will point to it as evidence of ongoing racism and if he's guilty, some whites who were neutral will see it as unfair and it will harden the view of some racists and be used to sway others to that way of thinking.
It could even be a factor in the elections. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-06/news/os-george-zimmerman-prepares-to-leave-jail-20120706_1_murder-defendant-new-felony-george-zimmerman
Zimmerman walks free again today after posting a 1 million dollar bond. See the above link for details |
I'm really curious how their assets went from essentially zero to having a million dollars in collateral at their disposal. It seems like they have a bit more than $200,000 from his legal defense website(s), but that leaves a lot more money unaccounted for. I'm not skeptical, just curious. |
| Quote: |
Zimmerman posted the $1 million bond thanks in part to the $20,000 in donations raised since Thursday when Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. set the bond amount.
That came on top of Thursday's defense-fund balance of $211,000, more than enough to cover the 10-percent non-refundable portion charged by most bonding companies |
(From the link in my last post)
The bonding company put up the actual $1 million and Zimmerman just put up the non-refundable portion. In most states the this fee is only about 10% of the actual bail amount...so Zimmerman would only have to come up with about $100,000 and he has/had more than twice that amount. |
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